Should zoos go for purely public pleasing?

[elefante]

I find White-Tailed Deer beautiful and majestic animals. They're simply amazing and anything but vermin. I'm sure many on here would say Humans are the real world's vermin.

~Thylo

White-tailed deer are beautiful animals, but they can be pests in certain areas where they don't have predators. I'm guessing this is similar to what people in Australia might think of kangaroos, which in the US would be a an animal the public would want to see.

For the Australians on this forum, would white-tailed deer be a public pleasing animal?

My apologies if this is derailing the thread too much.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

they are beautiful and amazing creatures I was talking about their population numbers. If you were following the context of the conservation we were talking about how whitetail are Least Concern when there should be a term for less than least concern.

My apologies, I obviously misunderstood.

~Thylo

 

[BeardsleyZooFan]

I find White-Tailed Deer beautiful and majestic animals. They're simply amazing and anything but vermin. I'm sure many on here would say Humans are the real world's vermin.

~Thylo

They are beautiful, and remarkably adaptable, but here in Connecticut and many other parts of the Eastern U.S., they are severely overpopulated. Deer can make farmers suffer by eating crops and orchards, can prevent successful reforestation after logging, have severe impacts on plants and other animals, decimate forest undergrowth, cause major vehicle collisions, and can spread lyme disease and babesiosis. They can jump high fences, and fear of humans is lost quickly. In autumn, rambunctious bucks are agressive torwards humans, and during spring, does are very protective of fawns. Lack of predators such as Cougars and Gray Wolves fail to restrict deer numbers. In Fairfield County, there are up to 59 deer per square mile, more than twice the amount of deer density in the rest of the state.

 

[zooboy28]

They are beautiful, and remarkably adaptable, but here in Connecticut and many other parts of the Eastern U.S., they are severely overpopulated. Deer can make farmers suffer by eating crops and orchards, can prevent successful reforestation after logging, have severe impacts on plants and other animals, decimate forest undergrowth, cause major vehicle collisions, and can spread lyme disease and babesiosis. They can jump high fences, and fear of humans is lost quickly. In autumn, rambunctious bucks are agressive torwards humans, and during spring, does are very protective of fawns. Lack of predators such as Cougars and Gray Wolves fail to restrict deer numbers. In Fairfield County, there are up to 59 deer per square mile, more than twice the amount of deer density in the rest of the state.

That is an extremely anthropocentric view BZF, which fails to consider the fact that a) the deer were there first, and b) all those problems are the result of humans, not deer. For example, deer do not cause car accidents, people crashing into deer cause car accidents. I really dislike this attitude of humans being superior, and all other animals being there for our use. Calling the deer vermin doesn't help solve the problem, it just shifts the blame from the people causing the problem to the deer themselves.

 

[tschandler71]

That is an extremely anthropocentric view BZF, which fails to consider the fact that a) the deer were there first, and b) all those problems are the result of humans, not deer. For example, deer do not cause car accidents, people crashing into deer cause car accidents. I really dislike this attitude of humans being superior, and all other animals being there for our use. Calling the deer vermin doesn't help solve the problem, it just shifts the blame from the people causing the problem to the deer themselves.

I was making a joke about how common they are. I have properly "managed" my tags this year to say the least. And thats with a week left in the season.

 

[Ituri]

I agree that there is a balance to be struck. In some ways the "ABC" animals are the A-list actors that put the butts in the seats, but without the supporting cast nobody is properly entertained.

It is possible for a zoo to market itself without those ABC animals, think of these zoos as independent films in our analogy. They can make a go of things by just being a good story. Although, just like independent films very few ever turn out to be "blockbusters".

The Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum has been brought up, and I think the reasons for its success is they aren't selling a zoo experience as much as they are selling an iconic landscape. I'm not sure, but I would suspect that if you were to look at the demographics of the ASDM you would see a different group of people than you'd find attending your average city zoo.

 

[tschandler71]

Great analogy Ituri. Thats why I like exhibits based on geography. You build an exhibit complex around an ABC animal and you include the other animals to somewhat model the biosphere in a simplistic manner.

Giraffe with local bird aviaries is a popular trend in zoos.

Little Zoos that are successful because they are good zoos in quality instead of quantity.

 

[elefante]

@BeardsleyZooFan, people in Wyoming seem to think wolves are eating all of the ungulates in the state, yet somehow I've had close calls with elk on the highway even though they are almost extinct according to some hunting groups. Hmmm.

@Ituri, that is a great analogy. The popular species are what initially bring people into the zoo.

@tschandler71, I like the geographic approach as well. I never have seen local bird aviaries in the same enclosure with giraffes. What zoos have that?

 

[BeardsleyZooFan]

That is an extremely anthropocentric view BZF, which fails to consider the fact that a) the deer were there first, and b) all those problems are the result of humans, not deer. For example, deer do not cause car accidents, people crashing into deer cause car accidents. I really dislike this attitude of humans being superior, and all other animals being there for our use. Calling the deer vermin doesn't help solve the problem, it just shifts the blame from the people causing the problem to the deer themselves.

I'm sorry that I have offended you, and I agree with what you say. Deer were here first, way before the colonists landed on our soils, and most of these problems are caused by humans. However, the deer population is overpopulated, just as the human population is, so I don't see how we can be responsible for the overbrowsing they cause. What we Humans share with the White-Tailed Deer is that we are both severely overpopulated, or at least deer are in Connecticut. I don't believe we are superior to deer, but is it wrong to point out the problems they cause for humans? I would have an even bigger list if I listed the problems humans caused for deer and other animals. All I'm trying to say is that some methods should be taken to reduce the deer population a little bit, and take new techniques to prevent deer-human conflicts for the sake of both human and deer, but I can delete my previous post if you wish.

 

[arcticwolf]

I'm sorry that I have offended you, and I agree with what you say. Deer were here first, way before the colonists landed on our soils, and most of these problems are caused by humans. However, the deer population is overpopulated, just as the human population is, so I don't see how we can be responsible for the overbrowsing they cause. What we Humans share with the White-Tailed Deer is that we are both severely overpopulated, or at least deer are in Connecticut. I don't believe we are superior to deer, but is it wrong to point out the problems they cause for humans? I would have an even bigger list if I listed the problems humans caused for deer and other animals. All I'm trying to say is that some methods should be taken to reduce the deer population a little bit, and take new techniques to prevent deer-human conflicts for the sake of both human and deer, but I can delete my previous post if you wish.

I think humans are responsible for the over browsing they cause because if less forests were cut down to make stores and houses, there would be more trees and other plants for the deer to browse on.

 

[tschandler71]

I think humans are responsible for the over browsing they cause because if less forests were cut down to make stores and houses, there would be more trees and other plants for the deer to browse on.

whitetail numbers increase when you cut over timber. They prefer the edge of forests and open fields to thick fores.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I'm sorry that I have offended you, and I agree with what you say. Deer were here first, way before the colonists landed on our soils, and most of these problems are caused by humans. However, the deer population is overpopulated, just as the human population is, so I don't see how we can be responsible for the overbrowsing they cause. What we Humans share with the White-Tailed Deer is that we are both severely overpopulated, or at least deer are in Connecticut. I don't believe we are superior to deer, but is it wrong to point out the problems they cause for humans? I would have an even bigger list if I listed the problems humans caused for deer and other animals. All I'm trying to say is that some methods should be taken to reduce the deer population a little bit, and take new techniques to prevent deer-human conflicts for the sake of both human and deer, but I can delete my previous post if you wish.

Deer are overpopulated? It seemed to me that nature naturally controlled the numbers of species in the form of disease and predators. We took out the predators yet are now trying to replace them by hunting as many as we can. IMO, there are only two large mammals that are severly overpopulated. Those are Humans and Baikal Seals. Honestly, as horrible as it may sound, both may need some kind of population control for the better of the planet and themselves. I'm not saying round up a bunch of poeple and kill them all but something needs to be done to control us.

~Thylo

 

[Chlidonias]

IMO, there are only two large mammals that are severly overpopulated. Those are Humans and Baikal Seals. Honestly, as horrible as it may sound, both may need some kind of population control for the better of the planet and themselves.

Baikal seals??

 

[tschandler71]

yes whitetail deer are regionally overpopulated. That is why we manage them with hunting.

 

[zooboy28]

I'm sorry that I have offended you, and I agree with what you say. Deer were here first, way before the colonists landed on our soils, and most of these problems are caused by humans. However, the deer population is overpopulated, just as the human population is, so I don't see how we can be responsible for the overbrowsing they cause. What we Humans share with the White-Tailed Deer is that we are both severely overpopulated, or at least deer are in Connecticut. I don't believe we are superior to deer, but is it wrong to point out the problems they cause for humans? I would have an even bigger list if I listed the problems humans caused for deer and other animals. All I'm trying to say is that some methods should be taken to reduce the deer population a little bit, and take new techniques to prevent deer-human conflicts for the sake of both human and deer, but I can delete my previous post if you wish.

Well, we are responsible for the overbrowsing, because we are responsible for the overpopulation, because we caused it. But I accept the rest of what you say, steps clearly need to be taken to reduce the deer population, ideally through restoring the balance in the ecosystem. Reducing conflict could be as easy as education, especially when it comes to aggressive stags/does with fawns. And don't delete your post, you made valid points, but you just looked at the problems from a different viewpoint to me.

 

[Monty]

For the Australians on this forum, would white-tailed deer be a public pleasing animal?

My apologies if this is derailing the thread too much.

I believe mismanagement has seen the die out in Australian zoos.

Apparently wild White Tail in NZ are of a sub species now extinct in the US

 

[zooboy28]

I believe mismanagement has seen the die out in Australian zoos.

Apparently wild White Tail in NZ are of a sub species now extinct in the US

I have seen and photographed wild White-tailed Deer on Stewart Island, NZ. It appears that the NZ animals originated from New Hampshire, and other sources list them as being of the subspecies borealis, which is native to that region. This subspecies appears to be the one that is overpopulated in the US northeast, so they are apparently not of an extinct subspecies.

-Paper on introduction to NZ: Introduced Ungulates in New Zealand — (b) Virginia Deer | NZETC
-Paper on feeding preferences in NZ: New Zealand Journal of Ecology
-Conservation and Deer in NZ Summary: http://www.doc.govt.nz/documents/ab...permits/conservation-revealed/deer-lowres.pdf

As for whether we'd like to see them in zoos here, probably not. Very few NZ zoos keep deer, although they are common in farm parks. None hold white-tailed deer. Deer species that are endangered and complement South-east Asian exhibits might make a good display, and one I would like to see, but no-one has done this yet.

 

[Shirokuma]

Interestingly, there is a large wild population of white-tailed deer in Finland.

Back on topic, clearly it is a question of balance. But I do feel that far too often zoos - and all kinds of organisations - take the approach that anything challenging or unusual will be alienating, going instead for the lowest common denominator that will be a sure-fire crowd pleaser and I think that is a real shame.

I also think it is untrue. I have seen crowds of visitors utterly captivated by all kinds of species, many of them unusual and unfamiliar to the average zoo visitor.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Baikal seals??

I saw a documentary that said that adult Baikal Seals don't really have any natural predator and have now become so overpopulated that there isn't enough rock basking space left for many of them.

I think people enjoy the familiar but also love the unusual.

~Thylo

 

[elefante]

Interestingly, there is a large wild population of white-tailed deer in Finland.

Back on topic, clearly it is a question of balance. But I do feel that far too often zoos - and all kinds of organisations - take the approach that anything challenging or unusual will be alienating, going instead for the lowest common denominator that will be a sure-fire crowd pleaser and I think that is a real shame.

I also think it is untrue. I have seen crowds of visitors utterly captivated by all kinds of species, many of them unusual and unfamiliar to the average zoo visitor.

People will be captivated by almost any kind of animal, but the "marquee" animals are still going to be what draw them in. It's sort of like a mall. If a mall has good anchor stores people will want to come in and see the rest of the mall.

I will point out that one zoo that I think may not rely on marquee species as much is Henry Doorly. While they have several of the marquee animals, they seem to have made a name for themselves with their indoor exhibits like the Desert Dome, Kingdoms of the Night, Lied Jungle, and Madagascar! While I'm sure people don't skip over the marquee exhibits, they don't seem to be as crowded as the indoor exhibits mentioned.