Twycross Zoo It gets worse.........

TARZAN said:
I agree that as far as zoos were concerned at this time, breeding them never came into it, bulls were hardly ever kept, in fact several zoos kept both Asian and African together, I would think Paignton was the last zoo in the U.K. to do this.
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Thanks, yes Paignton must have been the last, it took me back to my childhood when i went there for the first time in 2008, i couldn't remember the last time i'd seen both kept together!
 
The two Asians were Iris and Gitara. They were kept in a concrete cell - the same dimensions and original foundations of the now Bonobo exhibit. Gitara went, I think, to Belfast. Iris stayed and moved to the new complex at Twycross (?). Elephants are important to this zoo and with some strong management and leadership they will work it out.
 
TriGB said:
The two Asians were Iris and Gitara. They were kept in a concrete cell - the same dimensions and original foundations of the now Bonobo exhibit. Gitara went, I think, to Belfast. Iris stayed and moved to the new complex at Twycross (?). Elephants are important to this zoo and with some strong management and leadership they will work it out.
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I've learned something today, was the outside yard the same size as the bonobo outdoor area? When were the elephants moved to the new enclosure?
 
The Elephants were moved into their new enclosure around 1991/92. I'm not sure, but I guess Iris, Mimbu and Tonzi lived in the old enclosure for a short time until the current enclosure got built and then moved all 3. Iris I believe died in 1996.
 
Pertinax said:
You are correct that in those days many collections kept female Elephants in non-breeding situations as breeding was hardly considered possible in smaller zoos where a bull couldn't be kept. So I don't actually blame them for getting elephants originally though I think for what was then a comparatively small, chiefly Primate-orientated collection it might have been a wiser choice if they hadn't- the aforementioned female 'Iris' killed a keeper and the accomodation, since converted for the Bonobos, was typically of the time.

I believe where they went wrong was in replacing them with the current ones, given they didn't want a bull and have never been prepared to keep one. Sending them to Chester for mating was successful and resulted in the two female calves being born, but Molly B's attitude after that was 'we've bred them once, why bother again?' which is not exactly a very committed attitude to elephant conservation or forming a proper social group. Elephants are always going to be a difficult species to manage and there other less 'difficult' and popular missing species a medium-sized zoo like that could have added instead- what about Zebras, Pygmy Hippos or even the relatively placid White Rhino? Not quite the draw of Elephants maybe, but safer in the long run?
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I have always thought pygmy hippos would be a good exhibit for this zoo,although, not at the expense of the elephants leaving!
 
TriGB said:
The two Asians were Iris and Gitara. They were kept in a concrete cell - the same dimensions and original foundations of the now Bonobo exhibit. Gitara went, I think, to Belfast. Iris stayed and moved to the new complex at Twycross (?). Elephants are important to this zoo and with some strong management and leadership they will work it out.
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Yes, I agree, the elephants are very important to this zoo, even more so for the benefit of the visitors, considering how many other popular species have left the collection in recent times, to be replaced with virtually nothing, one of the best things this zoo has done in recent times is to improve the facilities for the elephants in residence, it is a very good exhibit, so after all this expense, it would now be really foolish to consider moving them on, I reiterate though, a bull elephant would certainly be a good thing, if finances permitted, and build a bull house on the site of the giraffe house, as was suggested by another member.
 
TARZAN said:
Yes, I agree, the elephants are very important to this zoo, even more so for the benefit of the visitors, considering how many other popular species have left the collection in recent times, to be replaced with virtually nothing, one of the best things this zoo has done in recent times is to improve the facilities for the elephants in residence, it is a very good exhibit, so after all this expense, it would now be really foolish to consider moving them on, I reiterate though, a bull elephant would certainly be a good thing, if finances permitted, and build a bull house on the site of the giraffe house, as was suggested by another member.
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I agree, i don't think getting rid of elephants should even be a remote possibility, given the species lost already and the amount spent on the enclosure recently it would be a suicidal move and remove what credibility the zoo has left completely!
If a bull house can't be built, there are plenty of other options, all of which would mean the elephants remain, which they simply have to!!
 
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The Twycross herd is important. With the end of Port Lympne and Belfast groups, Twycross forms one of only three breeding groups remaining in this country. Woburn might as well be Twycross, as they don't have a functional bull and must resort to AI as well. When funds allow, I'm sure a bull facility will be added in time. Until then, keeping a multi-generational herd structure is desirable. The move to protected contact is positive, and does not prevent further AI attempts.

The only thing that might threaten the future of the herd is if there are successive stillbirths and/or calf/mother mortalities as was the case towards the end at Port Lympne. In other words, they need some good luck with the next calf at least.
 
Has anybody else wondered why it all went very silent over the Elephants,its almost as if the keepers were stitched up for not wanting to change from Free Contact to Protective Contact!!!
 
zoogiraffe said:
Has anybody else wondered why it all went very silent over the Elephants,its almost as if the keepers were stitched up for not wanting to change from Free Contact to Protective Contact!!!
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That would not surprise me, just like a lot of other things that happened at this zoo during the past few years, despicable. I also wonder what has happened to these keepers since, as I understand all charges have been dropped by the Police, are the keepers going to be offered their jobs back under the new management?
 
TARZAN said:
That would not surprise me, just like a lot of other things that happened at this zoo during the past few years, despicable. I also wonder what has happened to these keepers since, as I understand all charges have been dropped by the Police, are the keepers going to be offered their jobs back under the new management?
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Would you want to go back to a place that did that to you,I know I wouldn't!!I believe 2 of them are back working in zoo's but not with Elephants,as for the third I have no idea!
 
zoogiraffe said:
Would you want to go back to a place that did that to you,I know I wouldn't!!I believe 2 of them are back working in zoo's but not with Elephants,as for the third I have no idea!
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I take your point but I think we must remember that the zoo is now"under new management", No, I don't think I would want to return to my former place of employment if I had been accused of something of which I am not guilty of,especially when this matter was placed in the hands of the police and was broadcast on national television news and the national press, coincidentally about the same time as the Roberts cruelty case was about to take place. On the other hand, could it not have been possible for these keepers to have returned to their roles as elephant keepers after discussing things as sensible adults with the new management, instead of taking things to an industrial tribunal, I am not stating that this happened in this case I must emphasise, but I do know this did happen with one former keeper who was dismissed, he was rewarded a five figure sum from the tribunal. quite correct, he deserved every penny of his compensation, but, it was the zoo that had to foot the bill,not the person who sacked him, money that could have been better spent on improving the living conditions of the animals. On a happier note, the 50th anniversary, do you know if the zoo are going to publish a commemorative booklet for this?, as it will be fifty years next month that the zoo opened.
 
TARZAN said:
I take your point but I think we must remember that the zoo is now"under new management", No, I don't think I would want to return to my former place of employment if I had been accused of something of which I am not guilty of,especially when this matter was placed in the hands of the police and was broadcast on national television news and the national press, coincidentally about the same time as the Roberts cruelty case was about to take place. On the other hand, could it not have been possible for these keepers to have returned to their roles as elephant keepers after discussing things as sensible adults with the new management, instead of taking things to an industrial tribunal, I am not stating that this happened in this case I must emphasise, but I do know this did happen with one former keeper who was dismissed, he was rewarded a five figure sum from the tribunal. quite correct, he deserved every penny of his compensation, but, it was the zoo that had to foot the bill,not the person who sacked him, money that could have been better spent on improving the living conditions of the animals. On a happier note, the 50th anniversary, do you know if the zoo are going to publish a commemorative booklet for this?, as it will be fifty years next month that the zoo opened.
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The zoo may well have a new broom at the top,but day today they would have to work with senior animal mangement team members,that were still at the zoo under the old Dictator!That have been around long enough to know when somebody is getting stitched up just because they did not agree,with changes that were being made as to how they had to work with the Elephants.As a result of the damage the foundless sacking,did to the 3 mens reputations with in the zoo world,I actually don't think the zoo could ever pay them enough money,to repair that damage!!

As for anything being released for the 50th anniversary,I don't believe anything is being planned to be printed,but then you never know they might if they release they could make some money!
 
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Frankly I think the fact that the zoo looks to still be around on the 50th anniversary is enough; this time last year I'd have given you even odds as to this not being the case!
 
Thank you Nisha for this information.I do not condone any abuse to any animal,physical or verbal and I cannot comment on the actual alleged physical abuse handed out to Tonzi and Noor Jahan as I have not seen the videos made by the zoo which were handed into the police. I have in the past seen videos made by animal interest groups featuring elephant abuse which have resulted in prosecution and in one case a custodial sentence, and quite right too. As I understand the elephant keepers at Twycross were accused of hitting the elephants with bamboo sticks, if they had been hitting them with bamboo sticks would this actually cause sufficient harm to the animal to warrant prosecution?, perhaps this is why the C.P.S. had thrown the case out although this would not necessarily mean that the keepers had not broken their conditions of employment with the zoo regarding animal husbandry in relation to their handling of the elephants. Looking back at this I think the zoo would have been wise to deal with this matter in house rather than going to the police, if the C.P.S.had decided there was a case, even if the keepers had been found not guilty, the negative publicity the zoo would have experienced in the media could have been sufficient to close this zoo down for good considering its current fragile state.
 
TARZAN said:
if they had been hitting them with bamboo sticks would this actually cause sufficient harm to the animal to warrant prosecution?,
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There's a very fine line between 'cruelty' and the normal discipline(as in free contact as it was then at Twycross) required to keep Elephants respectful and therefore manageable. I don't know who apart from other Elephant keepers would be in a position to judge whether the treatment on the video was necessary or not or whether the line was crossed. The Police/CPS would obviously have sought expert advice on this- but from whom?
 
Pertinax said:
There's a very fine line between 'cruelty' and the normal discipline(as in free contact as it was then at Twycross) required to keep Elephants respectful and therefore manageable. I don't know who apart from other Elephant keepers would be in a position to judge whether the treatment on the video was necessary or not or whether the line was crossed. The Police/CPS would obviously have sought expert advice on this- but from whom?
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I would think they would have taken the advice of Police animal welfare officers and possibly the R.S.P.C.A.And also possibly from somebody with experience in handling elephants in captivity of a good reputation
 
TARZAN said:
I would think they would have taken the advice of Police animal welfare officers and possibly the R.S.P.C.A.And also possibly from somebody with experience in handling elephants in captivity of a good reputation
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I think it is perhaps only the latter who would be genuinely equipped to give a reliable opinion?
 
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