SeaWorld San Diego Bill introduced to ban captive orcas in California

wensleydale said:
Miami Seaquarium can't be that bad, given that Lolita is still alive and healthy after the better part of 45 years. Yes she is the only Killer Whale there and her pool is relatively small but otherwise she isn't lacking in anything. She has consistency, which Killer Whales seem to thrive on. She seems to have had the same trainers for a long time, she isn't lacking for attention from them. She gets fed no matter what. She at least has the Pacific White Sided Dolphins for company, and this is a species that will associate with other cetaceans, including resident Killer Whales. They seem to be very comfortable with her, I have seen videos of them jumping over her without being prompted. The water in her pool is kept cool.

Would I have picked this for her? No. Do I think that improvements could be made on her living situation. Yes. I think that she would benefit from a larger living space, but preferably without subjecting her to a move while it is being built. The farthest I would send her is Orlando, and even that I think would be risking it. Another Killer Whale buddy? Yes. But her white sided companions should be kept just in case that don't get along. That might be a benefit of an (admittedly unrealistic) transfer (temporary or no) to SeaWorld, she would get to have some contact with some other Killer Whales while having a place to get away from them if things don't work out.

I am opposed to any sort of release for her. Her natal pods dynamics have changed significantly since her capture. She has lost any fear she might have of humans. Her former home range is now horribly polluted. She has little to no resistance to any pathogens that might lurk. Money spent on releasing her would be better spent on conservation measures for the Southern Residents that are still there.

The Seaquarium is being sold, hopefully the company that buys it will be willing to invest in these kinds of improvements. But I'm rambling. Anyway, my point is that space isn't the only contributing factor to a long life. And I think we will crack keeping them in captivity soon, we're just going to need to stay tuned.
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Just because an animal has lived in poor conditions for its entire life and is physically healthy, doesn't mean it should stay in those conditions. The captivity debate is more than just lifespan. Hell, Keiko the orca lived in similar conditions for many years, (though was physically less healthy by the time he was moved) and he had no problem adapting to his tank in Oregon or his seapen in Iceland.

As for a release? Hard to say if that's possible. But regarding the argument about pollution... Her home range today is actually less polluted than it was when she was captured. She was about 4 when she was captured, and they get most of their immunity from their mother's milk. Pollution wouldn't be an issue. I don't know if she can be released into the wild, but I do like the idea of having a big sea pen for her. If she can go back to her family, great, if she can't, well, a big sea pen would probably be a better environment for her than the tiny tank.

It's unlikely that the "Free Lolita" movement will succeed, but it's still probably the most realistic hope she has for a better life. I doubt any other park would be willing to take her. She's one of the oldest orcas in captivity, making her a risk on that front. She's probably unable to breed, making her useless as breeding stock. Her status as one of the most controversial captive orcas could make her bad publicity. She hasn't interacted with another orca for 30 years; who knows how that could affect existing pod dynamics.

But I won't lie, part of my support for that movement is out of scientific curiosity. Her unique situation means we could learn a lot about the species in an attempted released.
 
TheMightyOrca said:
But I won't lie, part of my support for that movement is out of scientific curiosity. Her unique situation means we could learn a lot about the species in an attempted released.
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We could learn a lot about the species by attempting to release an ageing, post-reproductive, stress sensitive, change aversive, and arguably socially stunted orca back to the wild?

Lolita would be one of the worst orcas to attempt to learn from given her particular situation and personality traits. If I absolutely had to guess, she would probably end up similar to Keiko. Perhaps enjoying the extra space and maybe even socialising with wild orcas for short periods of time, but preferring to spend time with people and not hunt for herself.

If you actually wanted to learn something from releasing orcas, a younger family clan would be a much better example to receive earnest information from. With numerous animals being hybrids though, it would just be plain irresponsible to release many of them.
 
Hyak_II said:
We could learn a lot about the species by attempting to release an ageing, post-reproductive, stress sensitive, change aversive, and arguably socially stunted orca back to the wild?

Lolita would be one of the worst orcas to attempt to learn from given her particular situation and personality traits. If I absolutely had to guess, she would probably end up similar to Keiko. Perhaps enjoying the extra space and maybe even socialising with wild orcas for short periods of time, but preferring to spend time with people and not hunt for herself.

If you actually wanted to learn something from releasing orcas, a younger family clan would be a much better example to receive earnest information from. With numerous animals being hybrids though, it would just be plain irresponsible to release many of them.
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I mean it in the sense that her mother and pod is still alive. Seeing how they interact could provide a lot of information. Would they still remember each other? How would they interact? Would Lolita choose to stay with them, if given the option? Would they work to keep her around? If she does get put back into the ocean, it's not like people are gonna just stand by if something bad starts to happen. If she's putting herself or other orcas or people at risk, she goes back to the pen. And I wouldn't want to put my own scientific curiosity over her welfare.

But yeah, in the end, there is a big chance she would end up like Keiko. Though I think by the end, Keiko was better off than he would've been if he stayed in traditional captivity. It wasn't perfect, because honestly, he really wasn't the best candidate for release. I would've been surprised if it turned out better than it did. If nothing else, I still support an attempt, or at least keeping her in a sea pen. It's unlikely that her current living conditions are going to improve, and I seriously doubt another park would take her.

I really don't think any captive-born orca should be considered for release. Like you said, there's the hybrid issue. But there's also the lack of social structure. They would need a pod to go to, and they wouldn't have that. Pod adoptions have been observed, but a captive-born orca might not know how to properly interact with a normal, wild orca in a normal social structure. Even if you released a whole group, I don't think any of the current captive pods function like a normal one. Just as well, I don't know if such a project would teach us much about wild orcas. Maybe adaptability, I guess.
 
I agree with pretty much your whole above post.

However, I beg to differ about captive groups not being able to form a proper pod. I think the single best example would be Kasatka's family.

There is the dominant female and mother, Kasatka, her three offspring, and her daughter is currently pregnant with Kasatka's 5th grand-offspring. I think they would do extremely if they were released (however 3 of the five are hybrids, which completely voids anything)
 
I don't think that Lolita should stay in her current conditions if if a suitable alternative can be come up with, I just don't think that her current caretakers should be painted as monsters. And I am totally opposed to releasing her. And she is not (none of them are) an experiment.
 
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Moebelle said:
I don't quite understand why news articles are stating this considering SeaWorld has yet to agree to the conditions...
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Quite possibly because the conditions provided are absolutely ridiculous. I was mildly infuriated when OSHA made their ruling on waterworks,but this is about 10 times worse. It's aggravating to see another organization who has nothing to do with animal welfare making a ruling regarding animal welfare.
 
Shellheart said:
Quite possibly because the conditions provided are absolutely ridiculous. I was mildly infuriated when OSHA made their ruling on waterworks,but this is about 10 times worse. It's aggravating to see another organization who has nothing to do with animal welfare making a ruling regarding animal welfare.
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Neither organization is in charge of animal welfare; they should not be the ones making such decisions.

I'm thinking of all sorts of nasty things that I want to say about certain people in regards to said amendment, but I'm going to hold off because I want to give good criticism instead of an angry, ineffective rant, unless someone beats me to it (the good criticism part.)
 
wensleydale said:
Neither organization is in charge of animal welfare; they should not be the ones making such decisions.

I'm thinking of all sorts of nasty things that I want to say about certain people in regards to said amendment, but I'm going to hold off because I want to give good criticism instead of an angry, ineffective rant, unless someone beats me to it (the good criticism part.)
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I've SeaWorld is fighting the waterworks ban again,and I know they'll fight the breeding ban. I've heard people say federal action could overturn the breeding amendment,and I'm hoping it occurs. I know I sound like a broken record but I'll say it again: this is ridiculous. There's absolutely nothing ethical in restricting family-oriented animals from breeding,and the logic behind it makes no sense either. It seems to me that certain groups are more interested in ending captivity than taking care of the animals "stuck" in captivity.
 
Whether or not you agree with orcas in captivity, I would expect we all will agree that tying enclosure improvements to a breeding ban is bad for animal welfare. Seaworld will obviously reject this 'offer', and if the ruling is not overturned then the larger tank will not be built.
 
FunkyGibbon said:
Whether or not you agree with orcas in captivity, I would expect we all will agree that tying enclosure improvements to a breeding ban is bad for animal welfare. Seaworld will obviously reject this 'offer', and if the ruling is not overturned then the larger tank will not be built.
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I would agree that tying exhibit improvement to a breeding ban is probably not the best way to go about things. But given that Sea World's impetus to improve its habitats is the result of the bad publicity from Blackfish, I'm guessing that the CCC figured it had to allow the public comment. However opposed I am to continued orca breeding, I could agree that a zoning/construction issue is not the place for the imposition of a breeding ban.

For those who think that OSHA should never have gotten involved in the water work debate, though, things are very different. OSHA's concern is with the safety of the trainers, not the whales. There is nothing improper about a governmental group concerned with occupational safety and health making a ruling about how people can interact with the whales for the safety of the people. You might not agree with the decision or the information upon which the decision is based, but OSHA is absolutely the organization that should be involved in this type of decision.
 
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