ZSL London Zoo Lemur walk through at London Zoo

[ajmcwhipsnade]

Of course I agree with you - I don't think anyone will be anything other than delighted to see a new exhibit at the zoo, especially if the quality is as high as in the majority of recent developments there.

The issue is not the new enclosure, but rather the choice of species. Ring-tailed lemurs rival meerkats in the ubiquity stakes. They can be seen a couple of miles up the road, in Golders Hill park, or in Battersea, or Chessington, or Paradise Park - the London zoos are not short of Lemur katta. Or, further afield, they can be seen at establishments such as Tweddle Children's Animal Farm, or Ponderosa Rural Therapeutic Centre, or the one and only Beaver Waterworld. In short, they are a long way from being 'choice' species!

And I don't think that the animals having a "fantastic home" is the most important thing, to be honest. I take it for granted that at a zoo such as this, the animals do have fantastic homes.



...but the zoo does keep hippos - brilliantly-displayed pygmies, which go down a treat. Rhinos? They could keep them, pretty easily - they have the space - but there's no apparent will to do so.



Clearly it's both! It's also a presenter of wildlife (which some might see as its being an educator). I don't see the clash, though. My feeling is that even if visitors aren't zoo nerds, they are, often, familiar with other zoos. They must surely be bored with ring-tailed lemurs and meerkats and Asian s-c otters too!



Of course not! And I do think London Zoo is, on the whole, doing a very good job of developing itself, with a much clearer eye on remaining financially secure. I just think that, very easily, things could be a whole lot better still!

Sadly my PC crashed just as I posted my reply which is frustrating! But what I was getting at is I personally think animals having fantastic homes is the most important thing, you cant take it for granted that every zoo will have fantastic homes. Not every zoo has the finance to provide 'world class' enclosures, but as long as the animals are happy and have a good life style then that's fine.

For me part of the enjoyment from a visit to any zoo, is not ticking off a rare animal off my list but it is seeing animals in good enclosures. If the zoo is creating a new home for ring tailed lemurs, then that's great that those lemurs will get a fantastic new home. The current enclosure for the lemurs is hardly special.

For me one of the ZSL's great strength is how well it does at creating fantastic enclosures for its current animals before spending loads of new species coming in.

 

[Communityzoo]

With respect, this thread seems slightly to miss the point - if the posts on the page in the link below are correct, the indoor part of the Clore servicing the new exhibit will feature the new aye aye(s):

https://www.zoochat.com/community/posts/838513

I think a clue to this would be in the absence of an indoor facility in the plans. I would imagine at least some of the offshow wing of the Clore will be used for indoor viewing of the walk-through lemurs, and I would imagine aye aye (and perhaps another Edge species already on site, the Aloatran gentle lemurs) might also form part of this exhibit. The plans very clearly show a low-budget innovation requiring minimal construction work in order to add a new enclosure onto the existing enclosures flaking the Clore.

If this happens, I would assume people would be relatively happy to see this kind of diversity in a lemur exhibit?

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

With respect, this thread seems slightly to miss the point - if the posts on the page in the link below are correct, the indoor part of the Clore servicing the new exhibit will feature the new aye aye(s):

https://www.zoochat.com/community/posts/838513

I think a clue to this would be in the absence of an indoor facility in the plans. I would imagine at least some of the offshow wing of the Clore will be used for indoor viewing of the walk-through lemurs, and I would imagine aye aye (and perhaps another Edge species already on site, the Aloatran gentle lemurs) might also form part of this exhibit. The plans very clearly show a low-budget innovation requiring minimal construction work in order to add a new enclosure onto the existing enclosures flaking the Clore.

If this happens, I would assume people would be relatively happy to see this kind of diversity in a lemur exhibit?

Personally I find the whole idea of a new enclosure exciting!

 

[IanRRobinson]

I am trying to avoid criticism of ZSL on this site, but when sooty mangabey and oflory express disappointment with a ZSL development (nothing personal chaps, it would be a very dull world if we all thought the same! ), then quite clearly Something is not as it should be.

Have you seen the lemur display at CWP, regent? As sooty says, it is keeping Crowned Sifaka, and Collared, Black, Ring-tailed, Belted Ruffed, Grey Mouse and both Greater and Alaotran Bamboo Lemurs. I must admit that I had hoped for a similar development at London and like sooty and pipaluk I am not at all hopeful that more will be done.

I admit that Grey Mouse Lemurs are deemed to be abundant in the wild, but why not some of Zurich's surplus Madame Berthe's? And London used to keep and breed Fat-tailed Dwarf Lemur. Nocturnal prosimians were one of the Clore's strongest points - off topic I know, but why are there no longer Pigmy Slow Loris?

I might add that mammalian diversity in Madagascar is not confined to lemurs. Ring-tailed and Narrow-striped "mongoose" would have been nice for a zoo of London's standing and why no tenrecs? The latter are widely kept by private breeders and I get so tired of the criticism that certain taxa do not make good exhibits. Part of a zoo's educational remit should extend to the concept of waiting until late in the day, or making another visit, to see taxa that have not obliged first time round. Keeping the Giant Jumping Rats in satellite accommodation surely is not too difficult, either.

This smacks, I fear, of a marketing department led development again. For my money, much, much more could have been done by using the Snowdon Aviary, which is fairly useless for birds.

Displaying diversity at London matters. It ought not to be necessary to trek to the far corners of Kent, Cornwall,Devon or Huntingdonshire to find rare and unusual small mammals. If (say) Rusty-spotted Cat, Tayra or Lesser Malay Chevrotain are deemed too obscure by London's present management, then, frankly, it does not say much for the capacity or scope of ZSL education.

 

[Pertinax]

Surely the reason for choosing Ring-tailed Lemurs for this walkthrough is because they are a. easily available( they have them already). b. they are bold and will 'interact' with the visitors to the enclosure. Its a bit of a lazy choice too but London zoo nowadays, like nearly all zoos, is developing more and more the trend toward interactive situations- walkthroughs, giraffe-feeding platforms, children's farm etc and I think the choice of species is often largely driven by that now, rather than a desire to have more unusual species of greater zoological interest on show. A great pity of course and why for zoo enthusiasts at least the collection seems so 'watered down' nowadays, both in terms of the total number of species held and with so many common, and even domestic or semi-domestic(like the Reindeer) species there.

That isn't to say they couldn't exhibit other, less ubiquitous Lemur species also. At Cotswold there are other species free-ranging in the walkthrough area too as well as the Ringtails and Ruffed. But then Cotswold have made a real effort at a Madagascar display rather than it simply being a walkthrough attraction. .

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Nocturnal prosimians were one of the Clore's strongest points - off topic I know, but why are there no longer Pigmy Slow Loris?

Pretty much still the only real strong point - Potto, Moholi Bushbaby and Slender Loris all very much qualifying as unusual taxa. With the exception of the (now back onshow) Panay Cloudrat and Australian Water Rat, there is precious little that is unusual and *not* a nocturnal prosimian

This smacks, I fear, of a marketing department led development again. For my money, much, much more could have been done by using the Snowdon Aviary, which is fairly useless for birds.

If only..... one could imagine great things of a lemur walkthrough where the public are effectively walking through the treetops with space for the lemurs to climb below, alongside and above!

But then Cotswold have made a real effort at a Madagascar display rather than it simply being a walkthrough attraction. .

And that pretty much sums it up - if a mid-size collection out in the sticks of the fuzzy area between the Midlands and West Country can make a "real effort" it is a great shame that the collection in the capital city misses the opportunity to make an effort again and again.

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

I fear I am missing what the problem here is? If the zoo already has the ring tailed lemurs, then what is the problem with providing them which a much better enclosure? If they are for different lemurs then I still think it is great that the ring tailed lemurs are getting a new enclosure. Why should they not get the benefits of a new home?

I also don't think that it should come down to what a zoo enthusiast wants, fair enough Cotswold may have various lemur species, but honestly (I am not saying this to be awkward) I can not see the problem with London Zoo creating a new exciting home for ring tailed lemurs.

 

[Rajang21]

ajmc, I think you're missing the point others are making. Of course people want to see animals in more spacious, enriching and beneficial enclosures, regardless of the species. The walkthrough would no doubt contain Ring-tailed Lemurs regardless of the other species contained within it, being as they are a popular, entertaining species.

The issue is the missed opportunity. Why can't ZSL envision a walkthrough with multiple species, such as that at CWP (which I admittedly have not seen) which, whilst including the ubiquitous Ring-tailed, is capable of mixing species not normally seen by casual zoo-goers and thereby introducing the diversity of the group to a wider audience?

Of course no zoo is going to be completely swayed by the desires of the enthusiast - families won't pay entry to a zoo purely to see 15 subspecies of a single species (I know I exaggerate but you get the point) - but considering that a major part of ZSL's remit is the EDGE conservation programme, an increase in the diversity and novelty of the species on display is something I'm sure would not go amiss.

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

ajmc, I think you're missing the point others are making. Of course people want to see animals in more spacious, enriching and beneficial enclosures, regardless of the species. The walkthrough would no doubt contain Ring-tailed Lemurs regardless of the other species contained within it, being as they are a popular, entertaining species.

The issue is the missed opportunity. Why can't ZSL envision a walkthrough with multiple species, such as that at CWP (which I admittedly have not seen) which, whilst including the ubiquitous Ring-tailed, is capable of mixing species not normally seen by casual zoo-goers and thereby introducing the diversity of the group to a wider audience?

Of course no zoo is going to be completely swayed by the desires of the enthusiast - families won't pay entry to a zoo purely to see 15 subspecies of a single species (I know I exaggerate but you get the point) - but considering that a major part of ZSL's remit is the EDGE conservation programme, an increase in the diversity and novelty of the species on display is something I'm sure would not go amiss.

Im sorry if I gave the impression that I did not see where others are coming from, I guess I just feel that going on and on about why a certain zoo does not do something is kinda pointless? Maybe I am wrong, and please don't take this as me being rude, but I just don't think its worth us all getting irate and annoyed (some may call it passionate) about something we don't have any control over.

I have not see the one at CWP either, and I will admit it sounds really interesting and something I would love to see (only time I have been to the CWP was a trip in our very old dodgy mazda!), but I just feel that any species that a zoo has should come first over any new ones.

In terms of turning the Snowdon aviary into a primate exhibit, I would have thought there would be various issues to overcome such as planning permission on what I believe is a listed building.

 

[sooty mangabey]

I guess I just feel that going on and on about why a certain zoo does not do something is kinda pointless? Maybe I am wrong, and please don't take this as me being rude, but I just don't think its worth us all getting irate and annoyed (some may call it passionate) about something we don't have any control over.

Ermmmm.... isn't that what a forum like this is, largely, for?

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

Ermmmm.... isn't that what a forum like this is, largely, for?

sure it is a place for debate and discussion but sometimes I feel the same thing gets said again and again. I joined the site because I love zoos and I wanted to be part of a healthy community of zoo lovers and of course I find the discussions on the site very interesting. I just worry that sometimes people (myself included) get carried away and forget the positive discussions that I have seen on this site.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't really like the continuous ZSL bashing that I see here. If I have got the wrong end of the stick then please say and I am more then happy to change my opinions, I just personally wish we could spend more time on the positives about the ZSL that greatly outweigh the negatives.

 

[Pertinax]

If I have got the wrong end of the stick then please say and I am more then happy to change my opinions, I just personally wish we could spend more time on the positives about the ZSL that greatly outweigh the negatives.

Don't feel inclined change your opinions because of what others say, that's what debating things is all about-peoples' different opinions. The reason ZSL comes in for quite a lot of critisism on here is because some of the older members can remember a time when this was a truly great Zoo collection-wise. Sadly that's so much the case nowadays.

 

[Communityzoo]

The stress of mixing several species of lemur in a new enclosure very often leads to conflict. There are several examples I can think of where individuals or groups have had to be removed from mixed lemur exhibits, sometimes leading to a particular species being permanently removed. I can also think of several examples where mixed walk-throughs have started with a single species and the diversity has increased through gradual introductions of others.

I'd rather London didn't have to rotate groups, or quickly move certain species offshow having discovered certain animals don't work together. There is nothing to suggest they won't introduce other species over time, and nothing to suggest they won't bring in their two EDGE species as part of the wider exhibit. The old ring-tailed lemur cage was one of the smaller remaining UK exhibits for this species, with so many collections now keeping them in open environments. Jersey didn't get slated when they opened the Kirindy Forest, and they didn't add any lemur species to their collection for that exhibit.

People lament the lack of 'spare' land being utilised, and the loss of diversity with each new display but, as neither is the case with this development, maybe the glass is half-full this time? As suggested on another thread, ZSL is not only persevering with aye aye, but you might even get to see the new animal(s), which are as uncommon as sifaka in the UK. What's not to like?

 

[gentle lemur]

I fully understand the desire to see rare and unusual species at Regent's Park, and I share it to a large degree. But I don't think the new walk-through is the right place for rare lemurs. Which species of lemur are being bred in walk-through enclosures in British zoos? I don't think there are very many: Cotswold have bred ring-tailed, red-bellied and collared, but their enclosure has restricted opening hours and will never be as busy as the one at Regent's Park is likely to be. Moreover most of CWP's really rare species are not kept in the walk-through.
I do hope that Communityzoo is right about the aye-ayes going on show and I'd love to see a nocturnal lemur or prosimian replace those rats (my dream would be Demidoff's which would make a wonderful display ).

Alan

 

[pipaluk]

sure it is a place for debate and discussion but sometimes I feel the same thing gets said again and again. I joined the site because I love zoos and I wanted to be part of a healthy community of zoo lovers and of course I find the discussions on the site very interesting. I just worry that sometimes people (myself included) get carried away and forget the positive discussions that I have seen on this site.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't really like the continuous ZSL bashing that I see here. If I have got the wrong end of the stick then please say and I am more then happy to change my opinions, I just personally wish we could spend more time on the positives about the ZSL that greatly outweigh the negatives.

You are entitled to your opinion just as everyone else is, but if everyone had the same view there would be no debate!
As for saying the same thing over & over again, YOU are as guilty of that as anyone else! All you post is how wonderful ZSL are & everything they do or don't do is right! You regularly imply they are above criticism and suggest others discussing it is pointless.
Clearly plenty of members don't agree with you or these issues wouldn't be raised!

 

[IanRRobinson]

I fully understand the desire to see rare and unusual species at Regent's Park, and I share it to a large degree. But I don't think the new walk-through is the right place for rare lemurs. Which species of lemur are being bred in walk-through enclosures in British zoos?

Alan

Oh, quite. I have never swerved from my opinion that walk-though enclosures for any animal are marketing ploys that do nothing for animal welfare.

Personally I'd prefer enclosures with central covered walkways, with windows at intervals. The CWP variant, with the truly rare taxa in separate enclosures is the next best option IMHO. Either variant could have been better done using the Snowdon, and I am puzzled that this wasn't done.

 

[Pertinax]

The CWP variant, with the truly rare taxa in separate enclosures is the next best option IMHO.

I think the CWP mixed enclosure works well on several counts; because its well laid out, spacious and only open for a restricted periods of the day, plus its monitored carefully while visitors to this large country estate are largely of quieter disposition with better behaved families etc rather than shrieking schoolchildren etc.

London is a very different kettle of fish- a noisy mainstream concrete 'tourist zoo' plus the schoolchildren from the inner London area seem among the noisiest I've encountered in Zoos. I don't know if CWP allow e.g. schoolkids in their Lemur enclosure but it would probably be obligatory at London. Even with monitoring by staff and only restricted numbers allowed to enter at any one time, the idea of Rare Lemurs and Schoolkids is a combination that makes me shudder. Which is why I think they have opted for just Ringtaileds- and possibly might add Ruffed at a later stage?

 

[Panthera1981]

Oh, quite. I have never swerved from my opinion that walk-though enclosures for any animal are marketing ploys that do nothing for animal welfare.

Personally I'd prefer enclosures with central covered walkways, with windows at intervals. The CWP variant, with the truly rare taxa in separate enclosures is the next best option IMHO. Either variant could have been better done using the Snowdon, and I am puzzled that this wasn't done.

A point well made Ian-regarding welfare I do worry about the Whipsnade ringtails. They are in the twilight of their lives and, with the points Pertinax makes, I certainly wouldnt consider London a suitable "retirement home" for them. They had enough problems at Whipsnade!

 

[Junior Friendly]

If these walk through enclosures do nothing for animal welfare, which I can see the point judging by how some visitors may behave, how come it is acceptable to ring tailed and not rarer more endangered species, seams a bit unfair to me just because they are not as rare as others so it is 0K to be teased and pestered.

 

[Panthera1981]

If these walk through enclosures do nothing for animal welfare, which I can see the point judging by how some visitors may behave, how come it is acceptable to ring tailed and not rarer more endangered species, seams a bit unfair to me just because they are not as rare as others so it is 0K to be teased and pestered.

A combination of factors probably. Some that come to mind include:

1.Mild natured.
2. Easily replicated diet.
3.They are the classic "lemur" everyone can identify from TV and film (Ive lost count of the number of times Ive heard them called King Julian, or seen people dancing).
4.Ringtails are ten-a-penny in many collections and are easily sourced.