South Lakes Wild Animal Park South Lakes discussion thread
- Thread starter Nisha
- Start date
What. A. Load. Of. Bollocks.
The rocks may or may not be dangerous. The trees may or may not be dangerous. The meteorites from the sky may or may not be dangerous.
Blimey, you're hard to please -which UK collections do you consider achieve your demanding standards for camels?
bigcat speciali
Well-Known Member
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...1/pb13815-zoos-expert-committee-handbook1.pdf
http://www.bas-uk.com/sites/default...Feb/Welfare Guide ALPACAS and LLAMAS 2015.pdf
Page 19-21 as example
Biosecurity Recommendations for UK Camelid Farmers | Alpacas for sale - Classical Mile End Alpacas - Breeders Of Quality Alpaca From Devon and the South West
Points 1 to 7 as example
http://www.alpacatb.com/biosecurity with note.pdf
Points 1 to 6 as example
http://www.doeni.gov.uk/niea/camelids_a5_rebranded_2009.pdf.pdf
Points 6 to 18 as example
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/69596/standards-of-zoo-practice.pdf
Self explanatory
http://www.bas-uk.com/sites/default...Feb/Welfare Guide ALPACAS and LLAMAS 2015.pdf
Page 19-21 as example
Biosecurity Recommendations for UK Camelid Farmers | Alpacas for sale - Classical Mile End Alpacas - Breeders Of Quality Alpaca From Devon and the South West
Points 1 to 7 as example
http://www.alpacatb.com/biosecurity with note.pdf
Points 1 to 6 as example
http://www.doeni.gov.uk/niea/camelids_a5_rebranded_2009.pdf.pdf
Points 6 to 18 as example
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/69596/standards-of-zoo-practice.pdf
Self explanatory
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There is not much about the South Lakes thread that makes me laugh...
But your reply certainly did!!!
yes, well done. Once again all you have proven is that you can attach links for articles which you either haven't read or did not understand the content of.
None of these relate in any way to your position that the camel enclosure - of which you have seen two photos - is dangerous and unfit for keeping camels because it has grass, trees and rocks in it.
I would say a vast majority of the enclosures at Bronx have trees and rocks (most much, much larger than the ones in your photograph) but I haven't heard of any issues. I'm sure accidents occur here and there but accidents will always occur and I don't think giving animals a bare, unnatural space is the solution.
But hey, Bronx's camel pen is rock and tree free so I guess they're good there
~Thylo
But hey, Bronx's camel pen is rock and tree free so I guess they're good there
~Thylo
taun
Well-Known Member
But hey, Bronx's camel pen is rock and tree free so I guess they're good there
Ah but do they take the edge of the grass so the camels do not get cut?
I think the main problem with grass in an ungulate enclosure is that there might be grasshoppers in it, and when they jump the ungulate may or may get startled and then may or may not break its legs and/or neck.
Here's a link: http://www.starwars.com/databank/jawa
Here's a link: http://www.starwars.com/databank/jawa
...and you're supposed to be a moderator.
jbnbsn99
Well-Known Member
Looks like hawthorn or blackthorn to me. Safe, natural browsing for the camels. Great enrichment (for a time).
bigcat speciali
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree it does look like haw or blackthorn. Indeed it is good browse but only when in season. The trees themselves lack any tree management, lack of coppice and trunk care. The walls themselves have diminished and are in a poor and dangerous state.
Even when out of season these are no danger to the animals - still great enrichment as they enjoy stripping the bark.
Who ever heard of coppicing hawthorn or blackthorn?
Sure, if the camels have free access to these trees then the trees will suffer - and most likely die if the bark is stripped.
Do these trees need management? I'm pretty sure there is no protection order on them.
The camels might well have been given access to these trees with the full knowledge that the trees will die. Indeed the camels might be knowingly allowed to 'clear' these trees.
Camels are extremely careful about where they tread. The dislodged stones from this stone-wall are really not an issue (even if they were sharp-enough to puncture a camel's sole). Indeed, I've seen sharp boulders used as containment for this species in some well respected European zoos.
I have kept out of this argument for as long as possible but this is an extremely rational argument! I don't think that BCS can even retaliate! This is probably the most informed reply I have seen on a South Lakes thred in a long time.
I would take Paradoxus's word over BCS's word any day, especially when he knows more than the opposition!
No offence BCS but you're up against someone who knows their stuff. It's time to call it a day...
bigcat speciali
Well-Known Member
Both Hawthorn and Blackthorn are indeed great browse, the berry fruit from the tree has its good points and down points, from seed dispersal to the antioxidants but also to the build of various chemical build-ups such as hydrogen cyanide (Cyanide isn't one chemical of course (it's an ion or functional group)http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-102180.html). There's cyanide in many seeds of the rose family (e.g. bitter almonds, apple seeds), and as the ion (cyanide) or the gas (hydrogen cyanide) it's a very dangerous poison indeed (https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=102180). However, in the seeds it is present as a compound called amygdalin built up from hydrogen cyanide, benzaldehyde and a sugar. The cyanide is released when this compound comes into contact with an enzyme (oxynitrilase) which is also present in the seeds: this happens when the seed is being eaten. Blackthorn is a shrub belonging to the same genus (Prunus) as almond, cherry and plum trees. The specific epithet spinosa refers to the sharp spines or thorns that are characteristic of this plant (http://www.kew.org/science-conservation/plants-fungi/prunus-spinosa-blackthorn). Camelids and ungulates in general can digest such fruits with no harm in general, but when prior before and after fruiting the tree itself has various changes to its chemical make-up which can indeed pose a danger. Just as the Yew has dangerous bark, there are indeed many trees, shrubs and plants that pose a danger, ragwort being an obvious. The use of hawthorn and blackthorn is mentioned with the following from the donkey sanctuary http://www.thedonkeysanctuary.org.u...42-1423235408-donkey_health_and_welfare_3.pdf along with http://www.thedonkeysanctuary.org.u...2-1404405754-donkey_health_and_welfare_14.pdf
The coppice of hawthorn and blackthorn has been done for thousands of years, even today coppicing is still done for fencing and other uses. Even "Blackrod" uses the blackthorn to hit the doors of Westminster. CHRISTOPHER LONG – Coppicing & Laying Hedges & http://www.devon.gov.uk/07steepingandcoppicing-3.pdf & http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/Rin259.pdf/$FILE/Rin259.pdf & http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/so-you-own-a-woodland.pdf/$FILE/so-you-own-a-woodland.pdf ...Indeed the trees should have a proper management system, just the same as animals, where bark stripping is kept to a minimum, where the tree etc can grow in accordance with its own way, the use of collaring, coppice and pollarding helps maintain the life and wellbeing, just as the keeper and establishments helps with its animal charges.
You do not need or require a tree preservation order to manage trees, http://www.planningni.gov.uk/8pp_tree_preservation_order_lores.pdf
Having worked with camelids and others, tough as old boots and as ignorant as the rest of us. I am not saying that camelids are daft or have no idea regarding footing. What I am saying, is that the establishment and owner has to make effort in negating any danger to both animal and keeper. Its one thing placing camels in a enclosure that has been taken care of and is in good condition. It's another when the camels are placed in a poor enclosure with a lack of correct management and foresight. It does not take much effort in correcting to down-sides and pitfalls, the lack of enclosure management. Given that there has been a past history of incorrect fencing, enclosures, health and safety etc, surely and without much thought, you should make effort in good practices?
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I love how you just cut-and-paste sentences from other websites and pass them off as your own (e.g. from Prunus spinosa (blackthorn) | Plants & Fungi At Kew).
I am confused by your intent with the two links. After commenting on the "dangers" of hawthorn and blackthorn you then provide links to two pdfs which specifically say that both species are "recommended" and "safe" for ungulates...
bigcat speciali
Well-Known Member
Not my intention to pass anything off, my error on that part as I failed to add the url link to it. I stand corrected on that error and shall edit it in shortly. I was showing that there is two sides to the post/story in refernce to danger and others.
gonna need to add in more than one link in that case. Just saying....
bigcat speciali
Well-Known Member
Now this is a first...its a pity Gill never did the same for his own keeper whom he blamed for her own death!