A UK Collection applies for Dolphins

[Pygathrix]

That's good news, maybe we will begin to see them in more zoos.

Generally how are manatees exhibited in Europe? I take it that the pools have to be entirely indoors, usually in a greenhouse or something? I saw some photos in the gallery of a European manatee pool (think it was Artis) that looked really quite disappointing and small. Nuremberg's enclosure also looks horribly small (I guess the same one that was built for them in the 70s,) yet they're breeding. Apparently Nuremberg is building a new enclosure soon. The 'in-vogue' manatee enclosure seems to be part of a Amazon Rainforest hall or something like?

Regarding manatees, I don't think they are interchangeable with dolphins and the general public recognises that they are completely different animals (they tend to confuse them with seals though). They don't do very much although I and I imagine everyone here loves to see them. I don't think they would attract the attention/revenue of cetaceans. They are tropical animals and require heated indoor pools, which means they are expensive to set up. They must be cheaper to feed though. When the few zoos that keep them are successful in breeding them they have the problem of housing them - if the young stay the pool can look rather crowded eg Beauval, and the initial capital expense of housing must mean that most other zoos are reluctant to take them. This is perhaps a smaller version of the problem now emerging with the increased "production" of elephants, especially bulls, and male gorillas too.

 

[^Chris^]

Regarding manatees, I don't think they are interchangeable with dolphins and the general public recognises that they are completely different animals (they tend to confuse them with seals though). They don't do very much although I and I imagine everyone here loves to see them. I don't think they would attract the attention/revenue of cetaceans. They are tropical animals and require heated indoor pools, which means they are expensive to set up. They must be cheaper to feed though. When the few zoos that keep them are successful in breeding them they have the problem of housing them - if the young stay the pool can look rather crowded eg Beauval, and the initial capital expense of housing must mean that most other zoos are reluctant to take them. This is perhaps a smaller version of the problem now emerging with the increased "production" of elephants, especially bulls, and male gorillas too.

That's an interesting point I'd not really considered. I suppose zoos can't really just knock-up a manatee enclosure or convert something else, the fact that manatee's need purpose built exhibits mean zoos have to make a big investment to begin keeping them.

But on the other hand, would that not also mean that a zoo making that investment would be guaranteed the ability to acquiring the animals it wanted?

 

[MarwellGirl09]

Nice to see Blackpool continuing to improve. It is owned by the Spanish based group Parques Reunidos. It used to be owned by Grant Leisure who originally took over the lease of the zoo from Blackpool Council.

.: Parques Reunidos : .

Parques Reunidos own a number of marine parks and aquaria world wide which includes cetaceans like bottlenose dolphins and the only breeding group of orcas in Europe at Marineland in France.

Marineland - Orca Pool

They could very easily build a dolphin facility at Blackpool and source the animals from captive breeding in their existing parks. I doubt if they would loose visitors - quite the opposite. However, they would have to put up with all the BS from the animal rights industry in the UK and may not think it is worth it.

Marineland France has 4 Orca's. There aren't even rumors of pregnancies from that park. MLF has many BND's but I don't think they have enough to think of giving them to the UK. But, I'm rather anti cetaceans in the UK, I just don't think we'd be able to care for them properly. That's just me.

MLF's Orca's are 4 out of 41. Freya is the oldest animal and only captured Orca left. Valentin her son is just maturing. Wiki (Valentin's half sister [by Sire - Kim 2]) is starting to mature. So I wouldn't have said that MLF is a breeding group of Orca's. They were a few years ago. But they haven't had a calf since Wiki (01/06/2000) and all of the Calves father (Kim 2 - Deceased 2005) died. So no, they aren't really a breeding group. I don't know what they're going to do to stop inbreeding with this group, but I do hope they'll cooperate with Sea World with AI but *shrugs* who knows.

Parques Reunidos does own many Dolphinariums, they even wanted to move 2 Orca's from MLF to one of their Spanish aquarium's. But I don't know if they'll branch out from Blackpool Zoo. They certainly can't do it with the Orca's.

Also, most places with Orca's keep the water temperature at about 52F. I don't think a 'heater' will be needed. Even a cooler wouldn't be too overworked with our temperatures.

 

[sealion]

These are fun. Particularly the photos of Skegness Dolphinarium which include some of me

The Defunct Marine Parks one is mine. you don't mind do you? are you the trainer in all of the skegness photos? I'll put a mention in of you if you'd like.

 

[sealion]

Also, some place in the UK should take posession of Lolita in the Miami Seaquarium in Florida, her tank is awful!! The park itself is pretty much a joke too...see for yourself:

Miami Seaquarium News

...even somewhere with land costs as high as the UK could build her a more suitable home!

 

[MarwellGirl09]

Also, some place in the UK should take posession of Lolita in the Miami Seaquarium in Florida, her tank is awful!! The park itself is pretty much a joke too...see for yourself:

Miami Seaquarium News

...even somewhere with land costs as high as the UK could build her a more suitable home!

Lolita, in my opinion, wouldn't survive a move within Miami Seaquarium, let alone to another country. That website is full of lies so don't use it as a source. Lolita is around 40 years old (or so we think) and is perfectly adapted to that pool. Yes it's terrible for her to be there, but she's obviously rather healthy and content. She is a very fussy Orca, the slightest change in her environment apparently annoys her. She will not eat a whole salmon either, the chunks she's given have to be precise. She isn't depressed or whatever anti-captivists think, if she was, she'd be dead. Orca's (as with all cetaceans) appear to choose to breath, she could very easily kill herself by just not breathing. She is old by captive standards (and post-middle aged by wild standards). The idea that all Orca's live to 90 is like saying all humans live to 112, some of us do, but not nearly enough to call it an average.

Lolita should stay where she is. If not happy, she's content and comfortable there. If she was moved, not to the UK. Sea World Orlando is only option if she were to leave Miami, but even then it's too risky. Leave her where she is. She's just fine, the second oldest Orca in captivity. They're obviously doing something right.

 

[sealion]

Lolita, in my opinion, wouldn't survive a move within Miami Seaquarium, let alone to another country. That website is full of lies so don't use it as a source. Lolita is around 40 years old (or so we think) and is perfectly adapted to that pool. Yes it's terrible for her to be there, but she's obviously rather healthy and content. She is a very fussy Orca, the slightest change in her environment apparently annoys her. She will not eat a whole salmon either, the chunks she's given have to be precise. She isn't depressed or whatever anti-captivists think, if she was, she'd be dead. Orca's (as with all cetaceans) appear to choose to breath, she could very easily kill herself by just not breathing. She is old by captive standards (and post-middle aged by wild standards). The idea that all Orca's live to 90 is like saying all humans live to 112, some of us do, but not nearly enough to call it an average.

Lolita should stay where she is. If not happy, she's content and comfortable there. If she was moved, not to the UK. Sea World Orlando is only option if she were to leave Miami, but even then it's too risky. Leave her where she is. She's just fine, the second oldest Orca in captivity. They're obviously doing something right.

Firstly you don't have to take my post so seriously, sarcasm may not come across so well over teh internet, but seriously.
Secondly, how do you know that the information you have found out isn't "full of lies"? If you have information from the seaquarium itself, i.e what she eats, that's more than likely to be pretty far from the truth, as the seaquarium are going to be very careful about what they let the public in on after having had so much negative publicity. a.k.a things that are going to persuade people that she should stay.
Thirdly, are you suggesting that if someone or something is depressed they will automatically die?

 

[MarwellGirl09]

Firstly you don't have to take my post so seriously, sarcasm may not come across so well over teh internet, but seriously.
Secondly, how do you know that the information you have found out isn't "full of lies"? If you have information from the seaquarium itself, i.e what she eats, that's more than likely to be pretty far from the truth, as the seaquarium are going to be very careful about what they let the public in on after having had so much negative publicity. a.k.a things that are going to persuade people that she should stay.
Thirdly, are you suggesting that if someone or something is depressed they will automatically die?

Sorry if I didn't sense that you were being sarcastic, as you said, unless someone types that they're being sarcastic no one can tell. I have heard so many rumors about Lolita in the last few years and none of them will come to anything, she is staying in Miami.

Miami Seaprison is run by anti-captivists only. No information from a non-biased sorce makes it onto there. The MSQ has changed a LOT from when that website was last updated, it is looking much better and the animals are just fine. Plus it hasn't been updated for quite some time. I know a few people who have been to Miami and some that go regularly, so I think I can trust them and their photos. MSQ is small, but it isn't a bad place. Some people like to pick and prod at the smallest things. I'm not saying that if she was depressed, she'd just drop dead, I'm saying that if she wasn't at least content, she would've died by now. An unhappy animal generally isn't in the greatest of condition. But Lolita is in perfect condition. Of course her pool should be bigger, but she wouldn't survive it (again personal opinion).

I myself haven't been to the MSQ, I'm just telling you what I know from people who have been there. It is not the hell hole that gets pushed into people's faces.

I don't mean to sound rude at all, I'm sorry if I did before. I honestly just wanted to stop rumors before they started, and believe me they would fly around.

 

[Theloderma]

Sorry, back to manatees! There have been a few comments regarding how to modify existing enclosures for manatees so thought it interesting that on a recent visit to Artis, the former manatee tank has now been converted into a very passable vivarium for cane toads. I think this gives some indication as to the size of the former 'exhibit' ! As a slight aside, on a previous visit when the pair of manatees + calf where still resident, it was possible to reach into the open topped tank and give them a scratch and , if you happened to be in the house at feeding time, you could also grab one of the many floting lettuces and go and feed the hippo in the adjacent pen! Not advocating this at all but there wre lots of people doing it and the hippos were clearly used too it. Did make me question the wisdom of Dutch Health and Safety legislation when i saw an elderly man dangling his grandaughter over the barrier to drop a lettuce into the open jaws of the hippo beneath!

 

[John Dineley]

Firstly you don't have to take my post so seriously, sarcasm may not come across so well over teh internet, but seriously.
Secondly, how do you know that the information you have found out isn't "full of lies"? If you have information from the seaquarium itself, i.e what she eats, that's more than likely to be pretty far from the truth, as the seaquarium are going to be very careful about what they let the public in on after having had so much negative publicity. a.k.a things that are going to persuade people that she should stay.
Thirdly, are you suggesting that if someone or something is depressed they will automatically die?

Sadly, having had dealings with many of these animal rights groups they are very selective with the facts and do tell lies. That is not to say that some zoos can not be completely objective either eg The Sealife Centre in Brighton stating that dolphins can not be kept successfully in captivity and that their display in the UK has been banned which is BS. I set up a web site sometime ago to try and balance some of the anti-captive propaganda at:

Marine Animal Welfare - dolphins in captivity

 

[johnstoni]

Well, that would be a way of constructing a dolphinarium under the noses of the public without a single proteat taking place outside the zoo. If animal rights groups see any plans submitted to the council they may assume this is a sealion exhibit, however I'm sure many people on here would be able to distinguish the two from viewing architects drawings.

 

[sealion]

Sorry if I didn't sense that you were being sarcastic, as you said, unless someone types that they're being sarcastic no one can tell. I have heard so many rumors about Lolita in the last few years and none of them will come to anything, she is staying in Miami.

Miami Seaprison is run by anti-captivists only. No information from a non-biased sorce makes it onto there. The MSQ has changed a LOT from when that website was last updated, it is looking much better and the animals are just fine. Plus it hasn't been updated for quite some time. I know a few people who have been to Miami and some that go regularly, so I think I can trust them and their photos. MSQ is small, but it isn't a bad place. Some people like to pick and prod at the smallest things. I'm not saying that if she was depressed, she'd just drop dead, I'm saying that if she wasn't at least content, she would've died by now. An unhappy animal generally isn't in the greatest of condition. But Lolita is in perfect condition. Of course her pool should be bigger, but she wouldn't survive it (again personal opinion).

I myself haven't been to the MSQ, I'm just telling you what I know from people who have been there. It is not the hell hole that gets pushed into people's faces.

I don't mean to sound rude at all, I'm sorry if I did before. I honestly just wanted to stop rumors before they started, and believe me they would fly around.

I do agree that I doubt she will moved before she dies....they won't get rid of her. But for simply keeping her there in that pool for so long and not making a proper effort to raise funds to build her a new pool or rehome her. Doing either of those things would gain them instant positive press and would improve their reputation. (the park have refurbished several other parts of the park since 1972 when her tank was built, but so far no money has been spent on refurbishing it. The main structure of the stadium is also in need of serious repair as it is held up with metal jacks and the tank is leaking quite badly.)

Some animal activists can go over the top, but personally can tell that from all the effort -demonstrations outside the park every sunday, celebrities and political parties getting invloved, and films being made about her-that I have no doubtabout the fact that the park is certainly not one of the best of it's kind. After all, these activists only live a few hours from seaworld, but they don't make half the amount of a fuss about there. Hugo, the other killer whale was kept in the manatee pool for a period of time before he went into the main tank. It is hard to believe that there was a worse tank for a killer whale, but this was it. Hugo later killed himself due to him ramming his head into the glass windows-a sure sign of stress. Lolita just seems to be resilient. But this doesn't mean people shouldn't try to help her, even if she died the day after she was released (although this isn't a realistic option) or was put into a sea-pen/seaworld-she would have had a better end to her life. Just because she'd old doesn't mean we should give up. She will most likely die in that tiny tank of hers, but we can still spread awareness of how not to treat such a magnificent animal and try to give her a happy retirement. She still has family out in the ocean, and she still recognises their "voices". If she was moved into a sea-pen she would be able to socialise to her family again.
( Seaworld was asked if an advert containing a man having his arm bitten off by a killer whale could be filmed at one of their parks. They refused, as they said the advert gave the wrong signals about killer whales-but the Miami Seaquarium quickly agreed to it.)
Did you know that Miami Seaquarium applied for a permit to recapture Keiko, the free willy killer whale? He would have been put in the same tank as Lolita-and they probably would have tried to breed the pair. Lucky they didn't succeed.

It is a tricky business as to what should or could be done. But most people wouldn't like to just stand there and watch ehr die without trying to help her.

 

[sealion]

Sadly, having had dealings with many of these animal rights groups they are very selective with the facts and do tell lies. That is not to say that some zoos can not be completely objective either eg The Sealife Centre in Brighton stating that dolphins can not be kept successfully in captivity and that their display in the UK has been banned which is BS. I set up a web site sometime ago to try and balance some of the anti-captive propaganda at:

Marine Animal Welfare - dolphins in captivity

Thanks...looks interesting. That's the issue. In the case of Lolita, it seems both sides of the arguement only say what they want their followers to hear. It is diffucult to distinguish what is right and what's not. But from what i've seen of some reviews of the seaquarium, many people who have visited didn't like the state of the park either.
There are hardly any places where you can get information about such places without any bias, take this website for example: most people on here will be pro-marine mammals in captivity....rather than say-on a whale watching forum.

 

[sealion]

Well, that would be a way of constructing a dolphinarium under the noses of the public without a single proteat taking place outside the zoo. If animal rights groups see any plans submitted to the council they may assume this is a sealion exhibit, however I'm sure many people on here would be able to distinguish the two from viewing architects drawings.

if the people here can, so will the activists lol

most of the surving dolphin pools are now sealions pools, all the need to do is build some bigger pools and reverse this. well its not so easy, but I guess it could be done.

 

[John Dineley]

if the people here can, so will the activists lol

most of the surving dolphin pools are now sealions pools, all the need to do is build some bigger pools and reverse this. well its not so easy, but I guess it could be done.

It could be but bear in mind the new dolphin display regulations that came out of the Klinowska's report would require pools twice the body length of the species, eg 24 feet approx for bottlenose dolphins. That was the main failing of all the dolphinaria at that time some would have past on area but not depth. The deepest dolphin pool at that time was Marineland Morecombe at 18 feet followed by Flamingoland at around 12 to 15 feet.

 

[sealion]

It could be but bear in mind the new dolphin display regulations that came out of the Klinowska's report would require pools twice the body length of the species, eg 24 feet approx for bottlenose dolphins. That was the main failing of all the dolphinaria at that time some would have past on area but not depth. The deepest dolphin pool at that time was Marineland Morecombe at 18 feet followed by Flamingoland at around 12 to 15 feet.

The pool at Brighton is only like 8/10 feet I think. Am I right? It's very shallow! the glass tunnel basically touches the water's surface!

Also, I was having a look round your site, which is very interesting and I was wondering whether you know of anywhere I could watch/get hold of a copy of the "into the blue" program?? I'd really love to see it! Is it true that the dolphins from the film "The fruit machine" aren't actually the ones that were at brighton?

EDIT: I found some footage- its flamingoland

 

[John Dineley]

The pool at Brighton is only like 8/10 feet I think. Am I right? It's very shallow! the glass tunnel basically touches the water's surface!

Also, I was having a look round your site, which is very interesting and I was wondering whether you know of anywhere I could watch/get hold of a copy of the "into the blue" program?? I'd really love to see it! Is it true that the dolphins from the film "The fruit machine" aren't actually the ones that were at brighton?

EDIT: I found some footage- its flamingoland

The tunnel was put in the old dolphin pool at Brighton by Sealife Centre. They have now opened up the public viewing area above the tank where you can see the remaining seating etc.

"Into The Blue" made it onto video. Search Amazon resellers they may have a copy. It was never repeated on BBC again due to my and others successful complaints regarding it's content to the BCC. Article here:

Adjudication on the Wildlife Showcase broadcast on BBC2 on 9 July 1992 entitled Into the Blue

More informtion on the project can be found here:

INTO THE BLUE

The dolphins in "The Fruit Machine" were filmed at Flamingoland although some footage was undertaken in the Brighton Aquarium in the main display hall. I clip of the dolphins in the film can be found here:

You can see the artificial wall that was constructed across the pool with windows shaped like the Brighton Aquariums. I happened to be a Flamingoland during some of the filming. "The Fruit Machine" is now on DVD.

 

[John Dineley]

The dolphins in "The Fruit Machine" were filmed at Flamingoland

PS: The three dolphins seem in "The Fruit Machine" left the UK in 1993 for European aquaria. They are all alive and well today and have had several successful births.

 

[sealion]

The tunnel was put in the old dolphin pool at Brighton by Sealife Centre. They have now opened up the public viewing area above the tank where you can see the remaining seating etc.

"Into The Blue" made it onto video. Search Amazon resellers they may have a copy. It was never repeated on BBC again due to my and others successful complaints regarding it's content to the BCC. Article here:

Adjudication on the Wildlife Showcase broadcast on BBC2 on 9 July 1992 entitled Into the Blue

More informtion on the project can be found here:

INTO THE BLUE

The dolphins in "The Fruit Machine" were filmed at Flamingoland although some footage was undertaken in the Brighton Aquarium in the main display hall. I clip of the dolphins in the film can be found here:

YouTube - Fruit Machine - Long Version

You can see the artificial wall that was constructed across the pool with windows shaped like the Brighton Aquariums. I happened to be a Flamingoland during some of the filming. "The Fruit Machine" is now on DVD.

yeah i knew that that was the old dolphin pool at the sealife centre, i mentioned the tunnel because it barely sits under the surface of the water-showing how shallow the dolphin's pool was.

I went to look for some footage from the fruit machine and..it was yours that I had found on youtube. thanks for uploading! i hadn't noticed the windows the first time.

do you know why they didn't just use the dolphins in brighton?

 

[sealion]

PS: The three dolphins seem in "The Fruit Machine" left the UK in 1993 for European aquaria. They are all alive and well today and have had several successful births.

awww thats nice. another quote from you, "The dolphins at Flamingoland in North Yorkshire were transferred to the Kolmarden Zoo in Sweden as a breeding loan for the zoo's new £12,000,000 extension to its dolphin complex." was this extension meant to be at flamingoland or kolmarden?