Taronga Zoo AI of A Elephant

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Could it be possible that the herd is eventually split between Taronga and Western Plains? and from there both allowed to expand in size.
 
I think this is the long term result once there has been a few births. But not until the african elephants are gone from western plains zoo.
 
look all of what you have said about space and so on is completly true and emmen and cologne do have alot more space, but also remember they were able to find that space, find a space in taronga that can house an exhibit close to that size i'll give you a prize. The point about the tropical african savannah is true however going by current rates it won't even be started for a good few years yet. The old sun bear enclosure has been fully commited to the red pandas as the current red panda yards are needed to meet the commitment taronga made to tassie devils.
 
@zooworker: My answer to your point is very simple, if a zoo can`t give a species the space they need, do not keep them! Animal welfare must come first, or zoos making their mission ridiculous AND giving anti zoo people all reason to attack (hich I would definately support when it comes to Taronga elephants).

Yep, more people will see them in Taronga compared to Dubbo (for example), but that does not help wild elephants to survive, and it is no reason to spend millions of dollars on an enclosure which is already outdated and too small at the time of construction.
 
Yassa said:
Yep, more people will see them in Taronga compared to Dubbo (for example), but that does not help wild elephants to survive, and it is no reason to spend millions of dollars on an enclosure which is already outdated and too small at the time of construction.
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Hold on I'd just like to clear up one thing, so if elephants aren't going to be used in a breeding program then we shouldn't spend a large portion of money on their exhibit?
 
ok heres the info ok. The exhibit is not outdated for keeping the family of elephants we are keeping, you may notice the number difference, cologne has at least 20, we have 5, and in a few months there will only be 4 in that exhibit, so the land difference is not relevant due to numbers, please tell me what will help the elephants in the wild other than showing people them. I've had this argument many many times with multiple people, the only way you can educate people and get people to care for an animal truely, you have to have the animal there in front of them. So having elephants at taronga is important for elephant conservation, i also wish to discuss this term out of date with you. Out of date would refere to an exhibit if we built an exhibit that was concrete floored, no enrichment, chains other such things. I think you'll find the exhibit is well an truly upto standards of modern zoo's. Space does not mean happy elephants, barren space means nothing. The simple way of putting this, if we want to educate we need elephants, its simply not practical at the moment to keep a herd of 20 elephants in the region at the moment, and if you look at zoo's around the world not many facilities maintain herds of that size. No matter what people say the elephants are there, no one would have approved of the exhibit if it wasn't going to be suitable.
 
That's true, now matter what there are always going to be animal activists protesting the rights of elephants, and finding flaws, even if the exhibit was extremly large I guess they will always be on our, back, It is kind of like I guess having a small house with lots of toys and video games to play with, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there are 13 elephants in Colonge but in an exhibit built for 20, ?
 
probably, i'm not exactly sure of numbers of elephants, i work marine mammals so elephants secondary knowledge, but still doesn't matter, as you said no matter what you do there will always be people fighting who a lot of the time have never worked with animals or haven't done any animal sciences so yes not really credible.
 
Its a tough argument to convince people that unless we see a live animal. The desire and heart connection required to stimilate the emotion. To care and actively contribute to there survival. Just does not happen in my experiance.

I fell in love with Gorillas the first time when l saw Rigo at Melbourne zoo many years ago.I dont belive my life journey and finacial support of Gorilas in captivity would have happened without that first meeting.

So yes lets have Elephants at the zoo. With passionate keepers like zooworker in charge of there care and enrichment. I would think they are in good hands.

It's a shame we dont live in a perfect world.....
 
zooman said:
Its a tough argument to convince people that unless we see a live animal. The desire and heart connection required to stimilate the emotion. To care and actively contribute to there survival. Just does not happen in my experiance.

I fell in love with Gorillas the first time when l saw Rigo at Melbourne zoo many years ago.I dont belive my life journey and finacial support of Gorilas in captivity would have happened without that first meeting.

So yes lets have Elephants at the zoo. With passionate keepers like zooworker in charge of there care and enrichment. I would think they are in good hands.

It's a shame we dont live in a perfect world.....
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I don't work with the elephants, but the keepers there i know would do anything for their animals. And what you say about a perfect world is completly true. I think you'll find that if you speak to any animal keeper they will share my opinion that animals would be better in the wild, however in a world where the wild really isn't there anymore, to keep the animals alive we need zoo's. Running the line, saying that animals in the wild are free from human contraints and influence also is not valid now, no animal anywhere on the planet is out of the reach of humans or controlled by humans in some way. It's sad that it has come to this but it's the only way.
 
zooworker said:
ok heres the info ok. The exhibit is not outdated for keeping the family of elephants we are keeping, you may notice the number difference, cologne has at least 20, we have 5, and in a few months there will only be 4 in that exhibit, so the land difference is not relevant due to numbers, please tell me what will help the elephants in the wild other than showing people them. I've had this argument many many times with multiple people, the only way you can educate people and get people to care for an animal truely, you have to have the animal there in front of them. So having elephants at taronga is important for elephant conservation, i also wish to discuss this term out of date with you. Out of date would refere to an exhibit if we built an exhibit that was concrete floored, no enrichment, chains other such things. I think you'll find the exhibit is well an truly upto standards of modern zoo's. Space does not mean happy elephants, barren space means nothing. The simple way of putting this, if we want to educate we need elephants, its simply not practical at the moment to keep a herd of 20 elephants in the region at the moment, and if you look at zoo's around the world not many facilities maintain herds of that size. No matter what people say the elephants are there, no one would have approved of the exhibit if it wasn't going to be suitable.
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While I agree with your general arguments about the purpose of having elephants in captivity, I would also argue that if you are going to spend alot of money importing individuals into the country for a breeding program, then a zoo should have the foresight to see that the group will need extra space in the future. If Taronga did not have sufficient space initially to allow a new elephant group to expand, then responsibly they should have never taken them on. To say that few facilities in the world do not have the space to maintain a large herd, only points out the stark point that the majority of zoos in the world should not keep elephants.

I have not seen Taronga's new exhibit so I cannot comment on its suitability however I can imagine that it would easily meet a modern zoo's expectations. My point is though if space doesn't make a happy elephant, then surely a large herd would.
 
The exhibit itself according to standards was built to house the family we currently have and offspring. So thats actually not an issue. We are not trying to breed a group of 20 elephants, it's 4 females we are talking about, two of which are pregnant at the moment, however elephant pregnancies are still new to australia and so i don't think there will be a sudden increase in population by huge numbers. The exhibit itself has the elephants happy and healthy, which was proven by the first pregnancy being a natural one. There are zoo's that at the moment can't fully care for their animals, however i feel that limiting this to elephants is a bad mistake because there are many other large animals that zoo's around the world keep in limited conditions. The facilities that are successful with breeding and so on don't have to have large herds, i show you the herd at smithsonian national zoo, large herds aren't the be all and end all, it would be wonderful if all zoo's could but it's simply not viable. The same with Hippos, most zoo's keep 2-3 animals. Chimp's, most zoo's keep 5-10, should be in groups of 20-30 at least, gorillas at least 10 in the wild. White rhino, 2-3 animals on average, large herds in the wild. The problem with elephants as well is that in the past most zoo's have kept 2-3 female elephants and breeding in zoo's in general has been very unsuccessful, so we are sitting at the tail end of a time of bad elephant management and so it won't just fix itself, the issue's of group sizes, space, other such things are zoo wide issues.
 
Taronga I guess is one of those tight knit groups instead of some much a large family herds, But when I went to sydney in 2006 the elephants looked very happy and I think the exhibit, though not large is very beautiful and unique,
 
I dont buy the theory that zoo elephants need lots of space. Obviously, they need some space but space alone is not the only thing that defines an exhibit's success in my mind. If it was, then safari parks and open-range zoos would have been breeding elephants successfully now for decades, whereas in actual fact the jumbo baby boom across Western zoos is an ashamedly recent phenomena and in most cases isnt the result so much of bigger, better exhibits (many enclosures are better but not neccesarily bigger) but an increased emphasis on establishing proper herd dynamics (as well as other things). In fact some births in European zoos have occured in enclosures which arent at all nice, but they are kept together in stable herds.
I dont think you could call Taronga's exhibit outdated. In ten years time maybe, if they do nothing about expanding it or relocating surplus animals but the 5 animals at Taronga are part of the regional ASMP so as the program gets up and running theyll either be shuffled around or the enclosure may, hopefully, be modified as Ive suggested.
I think Taronga's enclosure is wonderful...from the interp and in-situ conservation links to the way it places the elephants in their proper ecological and cultural context. Since their arrival nearly two years ago I have spent so much time watching these eles and they dont stay still for a minute; they always have something to do. Its also worth remembering that here in Sydney, due to our relatively warm climate the animals dont need as much space as those in Northern Hemisphere zoos because they are free to roam indoors and out, 24/7.
so to call Sydneys exhibit outdated because its not huge is, I think, over-simplifying the very complex needs set of a magnificent animal which space alone cannot meet. any animal species, in any zoo, faces less variables than its wild counterpart in its day to day life, and therefore less stimulation. enclosures like Taronga's highly enriched one (both in an enviromental sense and social setting), backed by a skilled and resourced team of keepers, insert variety back into the lives of these intelligent animals. so its of very little suprise to me that, though the exhibit may no longer look like a Thai resort, that these animals are not stereotyping, not acting aggressively to keepers or acting morose, and are, in fact, breeding.
btw, the zoos 12 month report on its elephant care program makes very good reading.
 
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glyn said:
I dont buy the theory that zoo elephants need lots of space. Obviously, they need some space but space alone is not the only thing that defines an exhibit's success in my mind. If it was, then safari parks and open-range zoos would have been breeding elephants successfully now for decades, whereas in actual fact the jumbo baby boom across Western zoos is an ashamedly recent phenomena and in most cases isnt the result so much of bigger, better exhibits (many enclosures are better but not neccesarily bigger) but an increased emphasis on establishing proper herd dynamics (as well as other things). In fact some births in European zoos have occured in enclosures which arent at all nice, but they are kept together in stable herds.
I dont think you could call Taronga's exhibit outdated. In ten years time maybe, if they do nothing about expanding it or relocating surplus animals but the 5 animals at Taronga are part of the regional ASMP so as the program gets up and running theyll either be shuffled around or the enclosure may, hopefully, be modified as Ive suggested.
I think Taronga's enclosure is wonderful...from the interp and in-situ conservation links to the way it places the elephants in their proper ecological and cultural context. Since their arrival nearly two years ago I have spent so much time watching these eles and they dont stay still for a minute; they always have something to do. Its also worth remembering that here in Sydney, due to our relatively warm climate the animals dont need as much space as those in Northern Hemisphere zoos because they are free to roam indoors and out, 24/7.
so to call Sydneys exhibit outdated because its not huge is, I think, over-simplifying the very complex needs set of a magnificent animal.
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very well said
 
I call Taronga`s enclosure outdated because I do compare the space with elephant enclosures in Europe, designed for a similar group size. 4 females in Taronga = 8 elephants if each female breds once, and 10 or more in less then 10 years when only one or two females have a second calf after the first. So let`s talk about 8-10.

Chester - enclosure has been expanded a few years ago) - 5000 m². Hagenbeck/Hamburg - I have no exact number, but it`s more then 4000. Hannover - which is pretty small - 3500. Howletts - 20.000 or more!! Berlin East - about 3000 for each species. Berlin West - 3.500. Halle/Germany - enclosure opened in 2006, 3500. Vienna, estimated 3.500. Paignton - which is the smallest ele enclosure in the UK and has only 2 old females - 2000 m². Same size in which Taronga wants to keep a family with 4 breeding females. Keep in mind that most of these enclosures are at least 10-15 years old, and that most new enclosures in european and US zoos are much more spacious with more then 10.000 m².

I agree that space is not everything, but it really makes me wonder. Oh, and I do not buy that natural breeding means animals are *happy*. It means they are fertile, not more - many animals incl. the highly intelligent chimps breed in awful conditions in labratories, for example.

I will stop argueing about Taronga with the post because we have exchanged all arguments more then once and if you want to believe 2000 m² is enough for a herd of elephants, so it be.
 
Wow, I can't believe that Taronga's enclosure for a breeding group is the same size as Paignton's, which isn't really big enough.
 
When the numbers increase I'm sure that more protesters will argue about space and such, again though Taronga doesn't have the space, and calves when older probably will be transferred to others zoos I predict, Its hard for me to say what I think exactly,
 
zooworker said:
The exhibit itself according to standards was built to house the family we currently have and offspring. So thats actually not an issue. We are not trying to breed a group of 20 elephants, it's 4 females we are talking about, two of which are pregnant at the moment, however elephant pregnancies are still new to australia and so i don't think there will be a sudden increase in population by huge numbers. The exhibit itself has the elephants happy and healthy, which was proven by the first pregnancy being a natural one. There are zoo's that at the moment can't fully care for their animals, however i feel that limiting this to elephants is a bad mistake because there are many other large animals that zoo's around the world keep in limited conditions. The facilities that are successful with breeding and so on don't have to have large herds, i show you the herd at smithsonian national zoo, large herds aren't the be all and end all, it would be wonderful if all zoo's could but it's simply not viable. The same with Hippos, most zoo's keep 2-3 animals. Chimp's, most zoo's keep 5-10, should be in groups of 20-30 at least, gorillas at least 10 in the wild. White rhino, 2-3 animals on average, large herds in the wild. The problem with elephants as well is that in the past most zoo's have kept 2-3 female elephants and breeding in zoo's in general has been very unsuccessful, so we are sitting at the tail end of a time of bad elephant management and so it won't just fix itself, the issue's of group sizes, space, other such things are zoo wide issues.
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Size of exhibit is a nebulous concept, and two people could argue the point forever. The point about enclosure space is really only valid when you interpret what a 'normal' sized group is for any species. It just happens that we are talking elephants, and that elephants attract alot of flack from animal rights campaigners. To me it doesn't matter what species we are talking about - if a zoo is intending on taking on a species, then part of the planning should look at how big does the area need to be so that the group can expand into it. You should never look at bringing a certain number of animals and only design it for that same number of animals. I could say that Taronga got it wrong with their gorilla group as well. It was never big enough for what was already a decent-sized group to expand into. It never took into account that generally 50% of the youngsters would be males and that at some stage they would be evicted from the group by the silverback. Part of that planning design must take into account that you cannot just expect another collection to take on your surplus, even if they are the most desirable species.

You mention that the exhibit is big enough for the current females and expected young. But what happens when those young grow up? Perth made the same mistake when they imported their three youngsters and did not allow for either the elephants to grow, nor for the bull to mature. This has since been rectified on both accounts, but it did require knocking down other exhibits to increase the space. It was a pity that this was not forseen. I fear that in several years time following successful births that Taronga will also see a need to increase the space.

I appreciate that from I'm told Taronga has built a good exhibit for their elephants, that they are happy and breeding, and that it is a good showcase for all the conservation work that Taronga is doing. However while size of exhibit is not everything, one would have hoped that with such a brand-new exhibit that Taronga should be striving for the best elephant exhibit in the world, not just a good one.
 
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