Alladale, the next step

[Vulpes]

I like how people think that the Wolves will only eat Red Deer. How many times have we released 'beneficial' species to other parts of the world only for that species to completely decimate another? Of course Wolves will take Red Deer, but what about other things? Like people have already said, the forests are already under immense pressure, why pile more species on there to make it even worse? The ecosystem has balanced itself without Boar and Wolves for 300 years. It always does, but throw those animals back in, you can do more damage. I am very much against the release of these animals. Not only for the existing wildlife, but for the animals themselves. If they go into total release (where they have full roam of Scotland) if they get into a farm or into a town or anywhere with humans, what's to stop them getting shot? Not very much.

What they are trying to do here is to create a complete European eco system, and its a reintroduction not an introduction, quite different from cane toads in Australia.

If manged correctly and tracked using radio collars they can be quite effectively kept away from human habitation but hopefully there is enough room in the highlands for them to be content to stay there. obviously they would need to be very closely monitored and managed! I would think this will be a condition that they are allowed to be released.

Deer are already in massive numbers which is harming the existing ecosystem there so you are quite wrong in saying it has balanced itself out. As for your comment after that "It always does" erm what are you talking about! I think you need to do a bit more research!!!!!

 

[Chlidonias]

I like how people think that the Wolves will only eat Red Deer.

who are these people thinking that?

How many times have we released 'beneficial' species to other parts of the world only for that species to completely decimate another?

this is not a case of introducing foreign species to other parts of the world -- it is re-introducing native UK species that were eliminated by people.

Of course Wolves will take Red Deer, but what about other things?

of course they will hunt other species than red deer. I expect everyone involved in the project is well aware of wolf hunting habits. But if the dominant prey species is red deer, which it is here, then that will be the species that the wolves will take as their dominant prey item.

Like people have already said, the forests are already under immense pressure, why pile more species on there to make it even worse?

not sure where you're coming from with this bit -- the forests are under immense pressure from human activites and from over-population of red deer. How do you think wolves are going to adversely affect forests?

The ecosystem has balanced itself without Boar and Wolves for 300 years.

no it hasn't. The wild places in the UK are in the main artificially managed by humans (eg by hunting), and are not "balanced". See post 38 by Pertinax above

It always does

this is just plain nonsense. Nature is not magic.

but throw those animals back in, you can do more damage

explain this to me

I am very much against the release of these animals.

quite obviously

Not only for the existing wildlife, but for the animals themselves. If they go into total release (where they have full roam of Scotland) if they get into a farm or into a town or anywhere with humans, what's to stop them getting shot? Not very much.

this would be the same for any animal. A red deer stag in rut might end up in a school ground. It would probably be shot. Oh no! Quick, get rid of all the red deer in case this happens!

 

[Pertinax]

One problem with these introduced species coming into contact with people is that the risk of danger of attack is heightened because the Founder animals at least, will already have previously been kept under captive conditions and therefore be used to(and therefore less afraid of) people.

I would place the animals in order of 'danger factor' as follows;

1. Brown Bear- by far. Impossible to have Bear/people contact I think.
2. Elk- Bull in Rut, cow defending small calves.
3. Boar. Particularly sow with piglets. Considerably less risky than 1.& 2.

I would not rate Lynx or Wolf as being of any danger to people under this sort of free ranging condition.

 

[Maguari]

2. Elk- Bull in Rut, cow defending small calves.

Assuming you mean Moose ( ), they're also a fairly significant road traffic hazard!


(and I say that as someone who wants them back!)

 

[Vulpes]

Assuming you mean Moose ( ), they're also a fairly significant road traffic hazard!


(and I say that as someone who wants them back!)

more than a red deer stag?

One problem with these introduced species coming into contact with people is that the risk of danger of attack is heightened because the Founder animals at least, will already have previously been kept under captive conditions and therefore be used to(and therefore less afraid of) people.

I would place the animals in order of 'danger factor' as follows;

1. Brown Bear- by far. Impossible to have Bear/people contact I think.
2. Elk- Bull in Rut, cow defending small calves.
3. Boar. Particularly sow with piglets. Considerably less risky than 1.& 2.

I would not rate Lynx or Wolf as being of any danger to people under this sort of free ranging condition.

just because an animal is raised in captivity doesnt mean it wont fear people infact if it is trained to fear people it will be a lot more wary of them than a wild animal that has never encountered a human before! They use loud noises and man handling etc to scare them!

Bear could be a danger so they would all need to be radio collard like the polar bears in Canada. Boar are a danger in theory but they are living in the south of England with a much greater population with few reports of attacks (most of which are on dogs I believe)

I agree wolves and lynx are no threat!

 

[Muggins]

I do not personally see why the animals need to be captive bred? There are plenty of animals that could be saved form the culls in Russia, Sweden and Finland that could be darted and brought across. This would also mean the animals still have the natural fear of man solving a few problems.

 

[Pertinax]

I do not personally see why the animals need to be captive bred? There are plenty of animals that could be saved form the culls in Russia, Sweden and Finland that could be darted and brought across. This would also mean the animals still have the natural fear of man solving a few problems.

But they already have Boar and Moose living in enclosures, so these particular ones are alredy used to People. However they could easily become 'rewilded' once they were given much larger areas to use and would probably avoid people then anyway.

 

[Pertinax]

Assuming you mean Moose ( ), they're also a fairly significant road traffic hazard!

Yes Moose( I must not say Elk anymore). I don't think they are planning any highways or railroads through this estate though..

 

[Pertinax]

more than a red deer stag?

just because an animal is raised in captivity doesnt mean it wont fear people infact if it is trained to fear people it will be a lot more wary of them than a wild animal that has never encountered a human before! They use loud noises and man handling etc to scare them!

Bear could be a danger so they would all need to be radio collard like the polar bears in Canada. Boar are a danger in theory.

I would only rate a Red Deer stag as dangerous if it was a. handraised or b. 'tame' i.e. kept in close proximity with people. I think because of their greater size, Moose could be more of a danger than our own Red Deer. In the US, males in rut will sometimes mistake people/hunters etc for rival males if they hear, rather than see them in dense brush. I think the likelehood of accidents is low, but its there. Same with wild boar though lower still. I agree tame animals(provided not handreared) can be trained to give people a wide berth. I don't think Bears would work though- they are just too formidable to ever be considered where human access is concerned.

 

[Maguari]

more than a red deer stag?

I would say so - they're bigger, heavier and (crucially) taller - if a a car hits them it tends to hit the legs, the the rest of the 1-tonne beast tends to collapse down and crush the car. Not fun.

Not to say this happens a lot though.

Yes Moose( I must not say Elk anymore). I don't think they are planning any highways or railroads through this estate though..

True - in terms of Alladale it's not really an issue.

 

[Vulpes]

I think the idea is to fence the 25,000 acres he has plus the neighbors reserve of 25,000 acres making it a 50,000 acre enclosure which is similar in size to Shamwari game reserve in Africa! I dont think any of the animals will be allowed outside this reserve just like the lions in Shamwari, so none of the fears mentioned earlier will be an issue. just the bloody right to ramble!!!

 

[Pertinax]

Yes, I don't think we will ever(?) see these species free roaming in Scotland. The Alladale project is a fenced reserve-style one, as we know. I think it is a brilliant concept- on paper at least- and really hope they can pursue it fully...

 

[johnstoni]

Although, we have to understand why wolves were wiped out in the UK. In terms of agriculture, most upland areas of Scotland, and the UK as a whole, are only really suitable for sheep farming.

 

[Vulpes]

I would say so - they're bigger, heavier and (crucially) taller - if a a car hits them it tends to hit the legs, the the rest of the 1-tonne beast tends to collapse down and crush the car. Not fun.

reminds me of an episode of Mythbusters where they tried to figure out which was the better option if a moose ran out in front of the car and you couldnt get stopped in time....

option A hit the breaks and slow off a little, less impact to the car

Or B speed up and hit the legs so hard that the car goes under the moose!

(No moose where hurt in the testing)

Although, we have to understand why wolves were wiped out in the UK. In terms of agriculture, most upland areas of Scotland, and the UK as a whole, are only really suitable for sheep farming.

Yes and that is what Lister is going to change, he is planting millions of trees and trying to restore his reserve to the way it once was when it supported all this life!

 

[Maguari]

reminds me of an episode of Mythbusters where they tried to figure out which was the better option if a moose ran out in front of the car and you couldnt get stopped in time....

option A hit the breaks and slow off a little, less impact to the car

Or B speed up and hit the legs so hard that the car goes under the moose!

(No moose where hurt in the testing)

Now I'm fascinated - did they reach a conclusion?

 

[Dan]

Just a few details from Sweden on the subject of moose. Maybe it could be of interest to the discussion.

Here we have something between 300 000 - 400 000 moose, if memory serves me right. They are spread all over the country. About 100 000 are killed in the annual hunt in the autumn.

They are indeed involved in many traffic accidents and hitting a moose with the car can certainly be deadly to the driver. The animals are big and heavy!

With such a large population of the species, it is not totally uncommon to see one if you are out in the woods. Now and then you might read a newspaper article about someone having been chased by a moose, but it is a very infrequent phenomenon. Oddly enough, though, I seem to recall a newspaper article a month ago or so, on the subject of the police having determined that a supposed murder victim actually had been killed by a moose!

 

[Vulpes]

Now I'm fascinated - did they reach a conclusion?

I tried to find the clip on youtube but it doesnt appear to be there, however I did find this. Give you an idea of what could happen if they overpopulate and end up in the suburbs of Edinburgh or Glasgow lol

Oh yeah your better to hit the breaks because the car doesnt go under the moose, actually it kind of does, only the moose takes most of the top of the car with it!

 

[kiang]

Wolves have now been dropped from the parks zoo licence application.

Landowner Drops Plan To Return Wolves To The Highlands

 

[kiang]

Wolves have now been dropped from the parks zoo licence application.

Landowner Drops Plan To Return Wolves To The Highlands

 

[Pertinax]

Presumably this decision has been made to give them a better chance of obtaining the Zoo Licence they need to proceed further.

Perhaps they will re-apply to keep Wolves at a later date, once they have got their licence. Without them the whole project seems rather pointless.