Animals who get the short end of the stick

[HOMIN96]

There's a group of Dianas in one of the East European Zoos that's at least a dozen or even more living together- just like wild troop. They look great.

That´s in Ostrava, and you are completely right, their group is always one of the highlights during my Ostrava visits.

That must be an artificial studbook recommendation for zoo management perhaps?- it doesn't reflect the wild where they live in much bigger groups than that.

Well it could be, or it could be related to the fact, that the exhibit in Pilsen, where I ´ve been told about it, is quite small and with 6 animals (breeding pair + 4 offspring and the female is pregnant again) is slowly reaching it´s limits. But I don´t think it´s an issue of old recommendation, otherwise, they wouldn´t be in rush to find new holder for the 2 oldest offspring. I also heard they genuinely fear that they will have to put them down, if they don´t find suitor for them until the end of the year.

 

[Chlidonias]

regarding De Brazza's Monkeys, in the wild they typically live in small family groups and also don't normally form mixed groups with other species as some guenons do. They have been recorded in the wild in larger groups, but it is not typical.

 

[Pertinax]

That´s in Ostrava, and you are completely right, their group is always one of the highlights during my Ostrava visits.



Well it could be, or it could be related to the fact, that the exhibit in Pilsen, where I ´ve been told about it, is quite small and with 6 animals (breeding pair + 4 offspring and the female is pregnant again) is slowly reaching it´s limits. But I don´t think it´s an issue of old recommendation, otherwise, they wouldn´t be in rush to find new holder for the 2 oldest offspring. I also heard they genuinely fear that they will have to put them down, if they don´t find suitor for them until the end of the year.

I hate to hear that sort of option being discussed. But if cage space dictates then it is understandable if they need to split the small group. A pair of (non-breeding) De Brazzas in the UK nearly ended up the same way but at the last minute were saved by an Animal Sanctuary.

I saw video of the Ostrava Diana monkeys- so busy and active compared to the very small groups. Wish more zoos would keep them like this.

 

[Pertinax]

regarding De Brazza's Monkeys, in the wild they typically live in small family groups and also don't normally form mixed groups with other species as some guenons do. They have been recorded in the wild in larger groups, but it is not typical.

Any idea what the average actual group size for De Brazzas is in the wild?.

 

[Komodo99]

Any idea what the average actual group size for De Brazzas is in the wild?.

They tend to live in groups from between five and thirty individuals.

 

[Chlidonias]

Any idea what the average actual group size for De Brazzas is in the wild?.

IUCN simply says "small family parties" but notes they have been recorded with up to 35 individuals. Their information comes almost directly from the following paper, which likewise doesn't give a specific number: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

However this paper I found is more useful: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Polygamous groups were the case for most of the groups in the Mathews Range, with most having a dominant male, making this population similar to others in Kenya (Brennen 1984; Wahome 1989; Mwenja 2004), but unlike those in the Gabon basin where they are evidently monogamous (Quris 1976; Gautier-Hion and Gautier 1978). Group sizes recorded ranged from 1–18, similar in size to those observed by Wahome (1993) in the Kisere Forest Reserve: 1–16 with an average of 10.1.

The @Komodo99 post above is presumably just taken from Wikipedia, although he adds the nonsensical "average" to Wikipedia's figures.

 

[Komodo99]

IUCN simply says "small family parties" but notes they have been recorded with up to 35 individuals. Their information comes almost directly from the following paper, which likewise doesn't give a specific number: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

However this paper I found is more useful: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Polygamous groups were the case for most of the groups in the Mathews Range, with most having a dominant male, making this population similar to others in Kenya (Brennen 1984; Wahome 1989; Mwenja 2004), but unlike those in the Gabon basin where they are evidently monogamous (Quris 1976; Gautier-Hion and Gautier 1978). Group sizes recorded ranged from 1–18, similar in size to those observed by Wahome (1993) in the Kisere Forest Reserve: 1–16 with an average of 10.1.

The @Komodo99 post above is presumably just taken from Wikipedia, although he adds the nonsensical "average" to Wikipedia's figures.

I'm no expert on primates nor have I visited many zoos that hold De Brazza's so I did a quick check online.Although Arkive states that De Brazza's live in groups of between eight and ten individuals.That is why I said it was an average.

 

[Chlidonias]

I'm no expert on primates nor have I visited many zoos that hold De Brazza's so I did a quick check online.Although Arkive states that De Brazza's live in groups of between eight and ten individuals.That is why I said it was an average.

You said "average from between five and thirty individuals". That's not how averages work. If you had just repeated what Wikipedia said ("live in groups varying from 5 to 30") you'd have been fine. Adding "average" to that makes it nonsensical.


(That's meant in a friendly way, not an antagonistic way)

 

[Komodo99]

You said "average from between five and thirty individuals". That's not how averages work. If you had just repeated what Wikipedia said ("live in groups varying from 5 to 30") you'd have been fine. Adding "average" to that makes it nonsensical.


(That's meant in a friendly way, not an antagonistic way)

I've just modified it.

 

[gentle lemur]

Well it could be, or it could be related to the fact, that the exhibit in Pilsen, where I ´ve been told about it, is quite small and with 6 animals (breeding pair + 4 offspring and the female is pregnant again) is slowly reaching it´s limits. But I don´t think it´s an issue of old recommendation, otherwise, they wouldn´t be in rush to find new holder for the 2 oldest offspring. I also heard they genuinely fear that they will have to put them down, if they don´t find suitor for them until the end of the year.

That's an unfortunate circumstance, which surprises me. If the eldest offspring are young males they may be getting too old to be tolerated by their father and if they are females they may mate with him or with their brothers. Of course all of these circumstances are undesirable. The old-fashioned 'Monkey House' solution would be to move them to a different enclosure, perhaps sharing with another guenon species; which is far from ideal. A better solution would be to remove the father and older male offspring to form a bachelor group, perhaps at another zoo, and then to bring in an unrelated male to breed with the females, perhaps in exchange for one of the males. In other words to manage the species in a similar way to gorillas, zebras and antelopes which are normally kept in groups with a single male. De Brazza's monkeys are so attractive that I would be astonished if no other zoo is interested in taking the surplus animals.

 

[Pertinax]

De Brazza's monkeys are so attractive that I would be astonished if no other zoo is interested in taking the surplus animals.

Which is why I was so surprised a non-breeding pair- (female with health issues) pair in the UK where nearly put down some years ago now but rescued at the last minute by the Porfell Animal Sanctuary in Cornwall where I presume they still live....

 

[Komodo99]

I think that lemurs in walkthrough exhibits are sometimes give the short end sometimes.While the exhibits are nice and can offer some nice interactive experiences,it seems as though some visitors think the animals are there to amuse them and can handle,stroke or attempt to feed them,it can sometimes just degrade the experience sometimes.

 

[Pertinax]

IUCN simply says "small family parties" but notes they have been recorded with up to 35 individuals. Their information comes almost directly from the following paper, which likewise doesn't give a specific number: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

However this paper I found is more useful: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Polygamous groups were the case for most of the groups in the Mathews Range, with most having a dominant male, making this population similar to others in Kenya (Brennen 1984; Wahome 1989; Mwenja 2004), but unlike those in the Gabon basin where they are evidently monogamous (Quris 1976; Gautier-Hion and Gautier 1978). Group sizes recorded ranged from 1–18, similar in size to those observed by Wahome (1993) in the Kisere Forest Reserve: 1–16 with an average of 10.1.

The @Komodo99 post above is presumably just taken from Wikipedia, although he adds the nonsensical "average" to Wikipedia's figures.

De Brazza's- So 5-35; average about 10. Meaning small groups ranging into considerably larger ones. I think in Zoos any number over 6 would probably consitute a decent-sized family group. One of the limitations on further growth is that inbreeding may then occur leading to individuals being rehomed to avoid that, so the group never increases to a greater size. On the other hand there's a Red-capped Mangabey group(not Guenons I know,) somewhere in France that numbers about 30, but the ratio is about 2.1 in favour of males- I suspect its a group that is not husbanded by EEP/Studbook guidelines.

 

[Pertinax]

De Brazza's monkeys are so attractive that I would be astonished if no other zoo is interested in taking the surplus animals.

That seemed to happen with a pair in the UK a few years ago. They were nearly put down until Porfell's Animal Sanctuary in Cornwall took them. I've p.m'd you about it.

 

[Chlidonias]

De Brazza's- So 5-35; average about 10. Meaning small groups ranging into considerably larger ones. I think in Zoos any number over 6 would probably consitute a decent-sized family group. One of the limitations on further growth is that inbreeding may then occur leading to individuals being rehomed to avoid that, so the group never increases to a greater size.

but the large group sizes are atypical, not something you'd want to replicate in captivity. It's like that huge gorilla troop recorded in the wild of - was it 48 animals? Something like that. It's an atypical group size.

The 35 figure for De Brazza's is a real outlier. You would want to be trying to replicate "normal" wild group structure which is either a pair or a male with two or more females. The extra animals which make up the numbers are the offspring which would be leaving when mature; the groups don't just keep growing. The only reason to try and build up large groups is because of a false idea of that's how "they should be kept". I guess that's sort of similar to the way solitary animals are kept in pairs or groups because "they need company" or whatever. However it actually makes De Brazza's ideal for smaller zoos which can't afford the space necessary for large troops as found in other guenons.

 

[Pertinax]

However it actually makes De Brazza's ideal for smaller zoos which can't afford the space necessary for large troops as found in other guenons.

It does seem that way. I think the 'top end' total for some of these Primates is when one or more groups merge temporarily- as in the highest Mountain Gorilla totals and species like Mandrill where 'megatroops' of hundreds of them are sometimes recorded together. Obviously the normal-sized Mandrill social group is a lot smaller than that. So for DeBrazza's a 6-8 sized group sounds pretty ideal in a zoo then...

 

[Chlidonias]

I kind of want to go to Gabon and try to see De Brazza's monkeys in the wild now.

 

[Pertinax]

I kind of want to go to Gabon and try to see De Brazza's monkeys in the wild now.

I believe they live in rather inhospitable locations- swamps from memory..... You could tell us how big the wild troops you saw really are too.

 

[Chlidonias]

I believe they live in rather inhospitable locations- swamps from memory..... You could tell us how big the wild troops you saw really are too.

riparian forest and swamp forest. From the first of the two links to papers I gave earlier, it could be interpreted that canoes might be the best way to see them along the river edge (in west Africa). In the second paper the author simply walked along the river valleys (in Kenya).

 

[Emanuel Theodorus]

Pinnipeds are often only used as animal show props in many zoos. I'd really like to see a zoo that houses pinnipeds without using unnecessary trick shows.

Smaller primate species exhibit are usually very small, has no adequate vertical areas, or just plain unattractive.

Reptiles, especially large constrictors, often housed in ridiculously small exhibits with no adequate lighting.

Savannah themed animals, such as antelopes and gazelles, often have no shade in their open plain habitats, when it is often very hot in the zoo.

Birds of preys often housed in ridiculously small enclosure, restraining their ability to span their wings and even fly.