Are These in Captivity?

[TeaLovingDave]

Are any sort of whales held in captivity? I've heard of whale sharks, sun fish and the sort but is that the largest they get to?

Orcas. I'm sure they've tried to house other species of whale in captivity, but I doubt they survived.

Orcas are not actually true whales, but are dolphins Belugas, on the other hand, are and have been held in captivity on numerous occasions.

The largest species to have ever been held successfully in captivity is Grey Whale - a rescued individual was held at SeaWorld for 14 months until she grew too large for the available facilities and was released into the wild. There are photographs of this animal in the Zoochat gallery.

 

[RatioTile]

Orcas are not actually true whales, but are dolphins Belugas, on the other hand, are and have been held in captivity on numerous occasions.

The largest species to have ever been held successfully in captivity is Grey Whale - a rescued individual was held at SeaWorld for 14 months until she grew too large for the available facilities and was released into the wild. There are photographs of this animal in the Zoochat gallery.

Aren't dolphins (not a monophyletic group) a subset of toothed whales (Odontoceti)? Like how tortoises are a subset of turtle, and true toads are a subset of frogs?

 

[OstrichMania]

Aren't dolphins (not a monophyletic group) a subset of toothed whales (Odontoceti)? Like how tortoises are a subset of turtle, and true toads are a subset of frogs?

No, dolphins are not a subset of whales. They are both distinct subsets of cetaceans.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Aren't dolphins (not a monophyletic group) a subset of toothed whales (Odontoceti)? Like how tortoises are a subset of turtle, and true toads are a subset of frogs?

They are a subset of the Odontoceti - but within the toothed whales only certain families (the Monodontidae, the Physeteridae, the Kogiidae and the Ziphiidae) are regarded as "true" whales, and none of these contain species of dolphin. True dolphins (not to be mistaken for river dolphins) are a monophyletic group, the Delphinidae - and it is to this family the Orca belongs.

 

[RatioTile]

So basically the common names “whale” and “dolphin” far predate modern taxonomy, and make no sense if you use monophyletic groups, but people still use them anyway.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I repeat - all families of whale and dolphin are monophyletic with the probable exception of the Eschrichtiidae, which is likely to be nested within the Balaenopteridae as the sister group to the humpback whale.

 

[Jurek7]

As far as I know, Hortobagy National Park explored the possibility of introducing saigas, and it was established by Russian experts, that it would not work. I did a check on the flora, and it is very similar to the Kazakh steppes, so that would be OK. Loads of food plants. The climate has however become too mild for them. Saigas don't do well in mild winters. They can tolerate extreme weather conditions, but they need mostly dry soil. They have small hooves, spindly legs, and a heavy body. Like many other leggy ungulates, they get easily injured if their hooves break through a thin layer of ice (like after a warmer spell in the winter). Waterlogged soil also has a high bacterial count, and saigas are very sensitive to gastro-intenstinal infections.
Safari parks in dry climates would be OK, but you'd need a huge grassland area for them to really thrive. In Askania Nova, I saw that they can get used to slowly moving vehicles. Groups of people walking will spook them. They are very flighty and easily stressed. In large enclosues, they can gain considerable speeds, so a collision with a hard fence will be fatal. The area needs to be the small, or very big. A lot of thought and attention would have to go into their enclosure and fence design, and even that won't be a clear solution.

Thanks for the information!

Is there any interest in trying again at Hortobagy currently?

Do you think south Spain, both steppe reserves and gazelle breeding centres could be good places for saiga? Also, there are several reserves in Germany or Netherlands on sandy heaths, which definitely have very dry soil.

Concerning climate: saiga in the past several centuries lived in wetter climates in much wider area of Asia and Eastern Europe, although not so wet as current England.

Ultimately, I think, saving saiga is the issue of organization/economy: establishing functioning hunting management in countries which traditionally have strong poaching culture and no good governmental anti-poaching services. Maybe Chinese approach of establishing private herds which owners have commercial interest in preserving a sustainable population is the answer. Or some variant of game management in Africa.

 

[Greg G]

Thanks for the information!

Is there any interest in trying again at Hortobagy currently?

Do you think south Spain, both steppe reserves and gazelle breeding centres could be good places for saiga? Also, there are several reserves in Germany or Netherlands on sandy heaths, which definitely have very dry soil.

Concerning climate: saiga in the past several centuries lived in wetter climates in much wider area of Asia and Eastern Europe, although not so wet as current England.

Ultimately, I think, saving saiga is the issue of organization/economy: establishing functioning hunting management in countries which traditionally have strong poaching culture and no good governmental anti-poaching services. Maybe Chinese approach of establishing private herds which owners have commercial interest in preserving a sustainable population is the answer. Or some variant of game management in Africa.

What is curently Romania may offer some good locations. It is actually within the saiga's historical range, but they were extirpated there in the 17th century I think. So the climate may have been significantly different at that time. As long as there are no extended wet and cool periods, the saigas will be fine. They can get a chill just lying on wet ground... their fur has not evolved to insulate them from wet cold, but frosty cold. They easily pick up bacteria from wet soil. If Spain, I would put them in the arid interior of the Iberian peninsula. Coastal areas are more humid and get more rain. They would most likely do perfectly well in a semi-desert. BUT, they do need hard soil. Just sand did not work in zoos at least, and the narrow small hooves that they have are also not suited for that. I would not put them anywhere near the Netherlands and Germany, The climate there does not work well for them (they can suvive, but may need a lot more attention from the vet...).

The sustainable hunting approach has been posited, I spoke about that with some German experts. We could talk about that if the speciesd wasn't critically endangered and prone to mass die-offs. Historically speaking, the saiga as a species had several population bottleneck events (as genetic studies indicate), so even dramatic population fluctuations are normal. But if you add climate change, poaching, habitat distruction, and then even hunting to the mix, the species may be pushed too far. I think essentially you should just leave them alone in the huge wide Kazakh steppes. Which won't happen.

 

[drill]

I think Pygmy sperm whale was once exhibited at SeaWorld San Diego? Were Narwhals ever kept in captivity?

 

[TinoPup]

I think Pygmy sperm whale was once exhibited at SeaWorld San Diego? Were Narwhals ever kept in captivity?

Mystic had a pygmy for about 5 months in the early 1990s, and SeaWorld San Diego had one for less than a month a few years ago. Mote managed to keep a pygmy alive for 21 months, and a dwarf for 15 months, but that's by far the most success they've had with over a dozen rescues there.
A few places tried to keep narwhal in the 1960s, most notably Vancouver Aquarium with 6 and New York Aquarium with a young one, but they all died within a few months.

 

[TinoPup]

Here's the major paper on dwarf and pygmy sperms in captivity - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240765690_An_Approach_to_the_Rehabilitation_of_Kogia_spp

 

[drill]

Mystic had a pygmy for about 5 months in the early 1990s, and SeaWorld San Diego had one for less than a month a few years ago. Mote managed to keep a pygmy alive for 21 months, and a dwarf for 15 months, but that's by far the most success they've had with over a dozen rescues there.
A few places tried to keep narwhal in the 1960s, most notably Vancouver Aquarium with 6 and New York Aquarium with a young one, but they all died within a few months.

Any pictures?

 

[Great Argus]

Any pictures?

One example from SeaWorld San Diego.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...-me-sperm-whale-20170824-story.html?_amp=true

 

[TinoPup]

There's also videos of the seaworld one online.

 

[Jurek7]

The sustainable hunting approach has been posited, I spoke about that with some German experts. We could talk about that if the speciesd wasn't critically endangered and prone to mass die-offs. Historically speaking, the saiga as a species had several population bottleneck events (as genetic studies indicate), so even dramatic population fluctuations are normal. But if you add climate change, poaching, habitat distruction, and then even hunting to the mix, the species may be pushed too far. I think essentially you should just leave them alone in the huge wide Kazakh steppes. Which won't happen.

Thanks for the info again! Sustainable hunting worked for some time in the USSR era, when the strongman government temporarily kept the poaching low. A different setup needs to be found now. Basically, find a stakeholder who can organizationally control poaching in exchange of harvesting surplus saiga, and an independent stakeholder who will supervise it. And put safeguards so the obvious will not happen: nobody will kill all saiga and move away. Starting Chinese companies from zero using purchased saiga is one possibility, moving saiga to a country which has control over poaching may be another. One cannot copy conservation designs from Germany or USA into countries with completely different organization, the same as it is impossible to build a city in a desert. I see it as a problem of governance more than zoology.

Russian literature says that saiga is adapted to big population die offs and rebounding in variable steppe hope. It breeds unusually fast for an ungulate, females start breeding next season after birth and commonly have twins or triplets. So I have a hope saiga will survive.

 

[Greg G]

Thanks for the info again! Sustainable hunting worked for some time in the USSR era, when the strongman government temporarily kept the poaching low. A different setup needs to be found now. Basically, find a stakeholder who can organizationally control poaching in exchange of harvesting surplus saiga, and an independent stakeholder who will supervise it. And put safeguards so the obvious will not happen: nobody will kill all saiga and move away. Starting Chinese companies from zero using purchased saiga is one possibility, moving saiga to a country which has control over poaching may be another. One cannot copy conservation designs from Germany or USA into countries with completely different organization, the same as it is impossible to build a city in a desert. I see it as a problem of governance more than zoology.

Russian literature says that saiga is adapted to big population die offs and rebounding in variable steppe hope. It breeds unusually fast for an ungulate, females start breeding next season after birth and commonly have twins or triplets. So I have a hope saiga will survive.

I agree, you cannot superimpose German attitudes onto a conservation in Russia in Kazakhstan. But I honestly don't know whether there is a 'best' solution at all. There are so many factors affecting saiga these days that it's hard for me to see what is still a tolerable pressure on the populations, and what goes too far.

The reproductive rate of the saiga is indeed remarkable. It can rebound very quickly after a die-off, as was also seen in the recent years. You are correct, females give birth at less than 1 year of age. The first birth is single calf, the following ones tend to be twins. Triplets would be an exception though. The ratio of male and female calves is 50-50%. Males are sexually mature by the second breeding season after their birth, and have a much shorter lifespan in the wild. They often die of exhaustion after the breeding season (they go off their food, chase females, fight males, protect their harem, constantly on the move and alert.). Breeding success is however by far not as good in captivity, and population management is actually not all that easy... I recommend that you read my study, it details these aspects too.

 

[Greg G]

Thanks for the information!

Is there any interest in trying again at Hortobagy currently?

Do you think south Spain, both steppe reserves and gazelle breeding centres could be good places for saiga? Also, there are several reserves in Germany or Netherlands on sandy heaths, which definitely have very dry soil.

Concerning climate: saiga in the past several centuries lived in wetter climates in much wider area of Asia and Eastern Europe, although not so wet as current England.

Ultimately, I think, saving saiga is the issue of organization/economy: establishing functioning hunting management in countries which traditionally have strong poaching culture and no good governmental anti-poaching services. Maybe Chinese approach of establishing private herds which owners have commercial interest in preserving a sustainable population is the answer. Or some variant of game management in Africa.

Re Hortobágy... I have no idea what their curent plans are. I was in touch with the German biologist in charge of the Przewalskis, but she has left, Everything depends on the climate, and it's getting milder and milder, and less and less predictable. The Hungarian plains used to have bitterly cold, snowy winters, but that's in the past now. The horses don't mind it at all. The saiga can tolerate some mud and cool (wet) weather, but not months and months of it. Btw, Hortobágy NP tried to introduce kulans at some point, but it did not work. I don't know the exact reasons. I only got to see the last remaining kulan stallion, which was put in a pen, and was unmanageably aggressive without medication.

 

[RatioTile]

Are vicuñas and lesser rheas in the US? I heard they're common in Europe, but in the the US I have only encountered guanacos and greater rheas.

 

[15399]

Are vicuñas and lesser rheas in the US? I heard they're common in Europe, but in the the US I have only encountered guanacos and greater rheas.

I believe Southwicks Zoo is the only US holder of vicuñas. Multiple AZA facilities have tried to acquire the species, yet have had problems getting permission to import them.

 

[drill]

Are vicuñas and lesser rheas in the US? I heard they're common in Europe, but in the the US I have only encountered guanacos and greater rheas.

Keystone Safari in PA and Frank Buck Zoo in Texas claim to exhibit the species but I don't think so.