Asian lions in the UK

K

Kifaru Bwana

Well-Known Member
15+ year member
We have been talking a lot on various threads on Asian lions intermettantly.

Good news at last: Chester's Asha just has had 2 lions cubs after a 3-month pregnancy, just the one has survived though. Keep fingers crossed for him.
 
where are all the edinburgh cubs going, or will they hold on to them to build up a small pride
 
Have Edinburgh got two pairs of cubs from the two females?

It would be good if they exhibit a proper 'family' of Asian Lions. Most places seem to keep just a pair and the cubs get moved on pretty quick. I'd like to see a larger group somewhere.
 
And another thought. THe Asian Lions must surely be reaching saturation point as far as placing cubs in new zoo locations. THat's another reason why some zoos could now afford to build up their group numbers a little.
 
wasn't a DNA test conducted that confirmed most of the "asian" lions in europe had unfortunately been hybridised with african lions at some stage? sure i read that. did the program restart so to speak with only animals confirmed of pure ancestry?

in any event the situation in india is rediculous. last i read the lions have reached maximum population size for their tiny environment but the gujarati government is reluctant to allow any other states to relocate lions to other reserves for fear of losing their only tourism drawcard... gujarat is apparently a very backwards state, not one you would visit if at all avoidable.
 
With whole SPECIES of animals sliding to extinction, why are zoos wasting their limited resources keeping races of animals separately, especially when those races are so similar that they can only be told apart by DNA testing.

Nobody seems to worry about the racial differences in asian elephants, but when it comes to asian lions, orang-utans etc.it apparently matters a great deal.

A bit of hybrid vigour will do them good!
 
Its called preserving biodiversity.

Actually you'll find most animals in zoos are managed at either a species or subspecies level depending on its availability or population size in captivity. different regions manage their populations differently and focus sometimes focus on different races. if teh species as a whole is so rare in captivity that preserving subspecies is unrealistic, then zoos usually mix them. for example, australian zoos have decided in mix their guereza colobus and giraffes as they don't have the population sizes to hold pure breds or importaion prohibits access to fresh bloodlines. on the other hand we are phasing out hybrid tigers since Sumatrans are a distinctly physiologically different race that can be preserved by captive breeding.

african lions are a dime a dozen in zoos and need no real benifit of mixing with asian lions. asian lions on the otherhand are much rarer, but should the subspecies not have a large enough gene pool then why would they bother mixing them? you then have a population of hybrid lions and a population of purebreds. since the hybrids are of no conservation benifit why not just keep the purebred africans and phase out teh asian hybrids alltogether?

subspecies evolved over a long period of time to be adapted to their own environment. did you know that many regard teh dingo as a subspecies of the wolf? would you suggest we no longer preserve wolves and dingos seperately?

what about amur leopards and west african leopards? west african leopards are unlikely to survive the extremes of a siberain winter.

many zoos have gone to great legnths to remove genetic impurities from their stock and for good reason. if we CAN preserve the genetic distinctiveness of an animals subspecies then why not do it?
 
Wow, Patrick, I knew that either you or ZooPro wouldn't be able to resist that one!:p

You're quite right,of course. From what I read of zoo/conservation breeding, the idea is to be able to reintroduce pure bred, not hybrid animals when the time is right.

Sometimes though I think we do "split hairs" just a little bit.
With such limited resources, it's a luxury we can't always afford.
 
and when we can't afford to do so, they often don't.

if you don't mind me answering your question with a question....

name a species in zoos today that is being preserved at a subspecies level in a way that is detrimental to the future of the species in captivity as a whole?
 
patrick said:
wasn't a DNA test conducted that confirmed most of the "asian" lions in europe had unfortunately been hybridised with african lions at some stage? sure i read that. did the program restart so to speak with only animals confirmed of pure ancestry?
Click to expand...

I only know of the situation in the UK, but until the mid nineties, only Marwell had Asian lions, but at that time all Asian lions in captivity outside India were thought to be 'impure', and so were phased out. London recieved 2.2 'pure' animals in 1990 from Sakkarbag zoo in India, along with one or two zoos in Europe, which were kept only in collections with no African lions from then on, and these pure animals are the founders of the current EEP.
 
patrick said:
wasn't a DNA test conducted that confirmed most of the "asian" lions in europe had unfortunately been hybridised with african lions at some stage? sure i read that. did the program restart so to speak with only animals confirmed of pure ancestry?

gujarat is apparently a very backwards state, not one you would visit if at all avoidable.
Click to expand...

Hadley is correct in his appraisal of the situation. The other zoo that received Asian Lions from India,, a little later than London, was Helsinki. The current stock are all descended from the London/Helsinki animals, and all are pure...

I've been to Gujurat(ugh..) and to the Gir Forest also...its mostly desert. We also saw Wild Asses in the Rann of Kutch.
 
Ara said:
Nobody seems to worry about the racial differences in asian elephants, but when it comes to asian lions, orang-utans etc.it apparently matters a great deal.
Click to expand...

Asian Lions do differ significantly from African Lions, though the differences are quite subtle. Hybrids don't display these external characteristics though, hence the need for DNA testing.

Orangutans- the two are now regarded as full species. Formerly they were regarded as 'races' or 'subspecies' Again, they exhibit a number of subtle differences in their characteristics(colour and texture of coat, face shape, body mass, even temperament and behaviour)

Asian Elephants- I think more attention should be paid to the differences here.
 
patrick said:
wasn't a DNA test conducted that confirmed most of the "asian" lions in europe had unfortunately been hybridised with african lions at some stage? sure i read that. did the program restart so to speak with only animals confirmed of pure ancestry?

in any event the situation in india is rediculous. last i read the lions have reached maximum population size for their tiny environment but the gujarati government is reluctant to allow any other states to relocate lions to other reserves for fear of losing their only tourism drawcard... gujarat is apparently a very backwards state, not one you would visit if at all avoidable.
Click to expand...

patrick,

That is right and it was not only European in origin, US zoos were also involved at that point. Genetic research in 1987 confidently established that the hitherto founder stock of Asian lions in western zoos was completely hybridised with African lion DNA. The breeding programmes were consequently discontinued and the lions were slowly removed from zoos.

In an effort to acquire a pure-bred stock of Asian lions outside range state India, several zoos in Europe acquired Asian lions directly from Sakkarbaug Zoo, Gujarat, India (close to Sasan Gir Lion Sanctuary. These were Chester, Helsinki (Finland), London and Zuerich (Switzerland) with 4.5 individuals. An EEP breeding programme was established in 1994.

All current Asian lions (35.46) within Europe derive from these 9 founders. At the moment the EEP Coordinator is looking into the possibility of acquiring further unrelated Asian lions from the Sakkarbaug Zoo (which incidentally is the Indian zoos' studbook keeper) to assist in making new unrelated pairings easier.
 
jelle said:
That is right and it was not only European in origin, US zoos were also involved at that point. Genetic research in 1987 confidently established that the hitherto founder stock of Asian lions in western zoos was completely hybridised with African lion DNA.
Click to expand...

That's correct. The founder stock they obtained from India were hybrid African/Asian. It may have been Ahmedabad Zoo that these lions originally came from.
 
patrick said:
in any event the situation in india is rediculous. last i read the lions have reached maximum population size for their tiny environment but the gujarati government is reluctant to allow any other states to relocate lions to other reserves for fear of losing their only tourism drawcard... gujarat is apparently a very backwards state, not one you would visit if at all avoidable.
Click to expand...

What better reason is there than this for some of the European stock to be sent back to populate new states in India, while new blood coming into the programme is negotiated? Why hold so many related lions at great cost in european zoos when there is demand for them in reserves back in their country of origin?
 
Unfortunately, 'new blood' for Asian Lions may be difficult to obtain- in the early 1900's only about twenty or so were left and all the existing ones are descended from them- so they must all show a degree of relatedness.

As far as relocations and reintroductions are concerned, the main problem seems to be there are few suitable areas where another population could be established. A 'back-up' population was started once some years ago in another reserve, using lios from Gir, but after increasing to about 11, they died out again after persecution. Further attempts to relocate any of the lions out of Gir seem to have been foiled by politics.
 
Hadley said:
What better reason is there than this for some of the European stock to be sent back to populate new states in India, while new blood coming into the programme is negotiated? Why hold so many related lions at great cost in european zoos when there is demand for them in reserves back in their country of origin?
Click to expand...

Hadley,

It may well be a possibility, be it a long shot for now. It is mighty challenging to reintroduce captive-bred carnivores. I am not saying it can not be done (what is favoured in some ecologists' circles), but it is definitely a trying endeavour to get into. Candidates must be newly weaned cubs and not a day older. They must be challenged to stalk small prey, then onto larger animals and finally on free-ranging wild animals in large enclosed habitat. And that is just a prerelease phase they would have to go through (look at the South China tiger programme for details on this).

But do not forget the current sit with the Asian lions in Sasan Gir. There are now well over 350 inside the 1400 km2 protected area surrounded by human settlements on all sides. The habitat is fine, yet the population is well beyond capacity. It is not exactly that there are too few lions, they do not have the freedom to roam. And human encroachment is leading to a spite of poaching that is taking a toll on the lion population.

Sadly, both Gujarat State government and Forest Department are literally sitting on top of the lions and are reluctant to let the lions go elsewhere, particularly inter-State. Nor are they at present even acknowledging the dangers of increased poaching, man-induced electrocution of lions, illegal deforestation, poisoning of water wells (which has only started in the last 1-2 years) in much the same fashion as India's federal States have been reluctant to acknowledge the demise of all major tiger populations - even in India's protected areas - and the consequent deconstruction of the Project Tiger myth (only India's dedicated wildlife tracking ecologists' have brought this out to the international media).

Federal authorities and the Wildlife Institute of India have both supported a relocation of Asian lions to set up a sattelite population in Madhya Pradesh. The Palpar Kuno project has been run by the Samrakshan Trust and envisages to release wild Asian lions into a protected area which has seen a resurgence in prey species (following several years of good protection and relocation of villages outside the reserve). This reserve has been chosen based upon careful ecological baseline surveys to select the best site for such an exercise. Finally, both IUCN, their Reintroduction Specialist Group chapter for Western Asia and the WWF have given the project their formal approval.

Now the recommendation for Asian lions from Sasan Gir to Palpar Kuno has been out for several years now and the Gujarat State government continues to block the WTI conservation programme for a satellite lion population. Their latest act has been to propose the extension of Sasan Gir to several areas near to Gir in Gujarat. But sound research is lacking and it can only be best qualified as a political diversion.

What I find really shameful in this whole episode how politics have hijacked a species for politics to the effect that Asian lions are actually becoming more endangered by the non-interventionist and lacklustre attitude of a State government.

The Palpar Kuno project is now contemplating taking some lions from the pure-bred stock in Indian zoos to start the re-introduction effort anyway.

Now, if any of you boys and girls would have a vote on this ... what would be your opinion?
 
If there is the will, and the desire for pure Asian lions, despite the difficulties, europe should send some to join the reintroduction project if it takes place.
 
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