Asian lions in the UK

personally, i think when it comes to the reintroduction of captive carnivores particuarly (though to some degree it could be true of many different types of animals) we have too much emphasis on actually release captive-bred stock. its very difficult for a human to train a wild cat how to hunt. and rediculously costly. now whilst in this particular asian lion case it may be impossible, but if the aim is simply to introduce fresh genetics to a wild population, thn i think a more logical approach is to capture wild stock, bring them into captivity for a short period and allow them to mate with captive animals. you then re-release them pregnant so they can raise their young, invigorated with captive bloodlines, as a wild animal. a wild cat doesn't forget how to hunt.

of course like i said this may not be such a benifit to re-establishing asian lions, once taking in all the factors (already limited gene pool, politics etc..) but it would be useful for rare cat species on the brink that are doing better in captivity than in the wild. examples might be amur leopards or sumatran or siberain tigers..

on another note i would very much like to see some proper studies (there may be some, but i haven't seen it) into the distinctiveness of iran's last asiatic cheetahs. if the subspecies is distinct i would very much like to see it preserved and eventually reintroduced to india (there is much interest in doing so by certain indian conservation authorities) where it can thrive on indian antelope and chinkara once more. currently, they are in less than ideal mountainous habitat where they are feeding on mainly wild caprids..

oh and grant, isn't it funny how everyone hates gujurat!!! ;)
 
jelle said:
What I find really shameful in this whole episode how politics have hijacked a species for politics to the effect that Asian lions are actually becoming more endangered by the non-interventionist and lacklustre attitude of a State government.

The Palpar Kuno project is now contemplating taking some lions from the pure-bred stock in Indian zoos to start the re-introduction effort anyway.

Now, if any of you boys and girls would have a vote on this ... what would be your opinion?
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Jelle.

I read your report on this with great interest. Congratulations on such an informed and detailed description of the current situation. Its many years since I visited the Gir, but the situation seems pretty much the same. And interestingly the Lion population is still almost exactly the same now as it was then...

It seems that using captive-bred lions for the reintroduction effort is one way out. It could also possibly provide homes for some of the European Asiatics too. However, its obviously hugely time-consuming to prepare cubs for life in the wild, months and months of 'training'- compared with a simple release of wild lions. However, I think it is possible and could prove the only option if Gujurat continue with their stubborn attitude...
 
patrick said:
oh and grant, isn't it funny how everyone hates gujurat!!! ;)
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You could not get any form of alcoholic drink. Only a lemonade-like fluid called 'Limca' if I remember correctly.

The interesting thing about the 'wild' lions in Gir is how they live alongside people. They are NOT aggressive and you can walk quite close to them without fear of being attacked. I have been told they possess a gene which largely precludes aggressive behaviour toward people..(Compare to some African lions, e.g. those in Etosha which were still maneaters only a few generations ago.)

Iranian Cheetah. Yes, I knew there were moves afoot to reintroduce them to India. I think the Iranian government won't agree to it though. There was one female living in a zoo in Iran but its now dead..
 
patrick said:
of course like i said this may not be such a benifit to re-establishing asian lions, once taking in all the factors (already limited gene pool, politics etc..) but it would be useful for rare cat species on the brink that are doing better in captivity than in the wild. examples might be amur leopards or sumatran or siberain tigers..
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patrick,

You mention you would think more of taking wild Asian lions, breed them in captivity and re-release them to the wild. I simply said that the WTI and Samrakshan Trust were contemplating that move since the Gujarati State government was totally uncooperative and reluctant to work in the interest of securing a wild future for Gir lion population.

For a fact all Asian lions presently in captivity in Indian zoos originate from wild born stock assembled by the Sakkarbaug Zoo, Junagadh, Gujarat. One or two of the original EEP founders were also wild-caught when exported out of Sakkarbaug. This zoo is also the way-station for any injured lions that need medical intervention.

As for reintroduction of carnivores it is no longer a dead science. Examples in southern Africa are release programmes of captive-bred southern cheetahs Acinonyx jubatus jubatus and wild dogs Lycaon pictus and restocking of Namibian lions to SA reserves. To what extent these lions were captive-bred I am not sure. Will check on this if you like.

Reintroduction being far better for the other carnivore species you propose: each has its own particular history, reasons for their decline in the wild and so not in all cases is reintroduction from captive sources the best way forward for their conservation.

Speaking of which, I will have to open another thread for your and grantsmb's questions relating to Asiatic cheetahs.
 
grantsmb said:
You could not get any form of alcoholic drink. Only a lemonade-like fluid called 'Limca' if I remember correctly.
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ha ha ha - mate i used to love a nice cold limca after a sweaty dusty day being hassled!! my ex girlfriend and i always used to say how we wanted to export limca to australia. truth is, it was nothing special, but when your in india you appreciate lifes little luxuries more!!
 
patrick said:
how we wanted to export limca to australia. truth is, it was nothing special, but when your in india you appreciate lifes little luxuries more!!
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How right you are!!! We used to treasure our evening drink of 'limca'- it was the high spot of the day....

Did you get to the Gir Forest? Seeing the lions was a pretty strange experience. In those days they had daily 'shows' were a group of lions would be drawn to a public display by a tethered buffalo(which they weren't allowed to kill incidentally) so that huge crowds of locals could get to see them. It was a bizarre sight, a huge colourful crowd of people on one side, and a group of lions sitting patiently watching a buffalo on the other...

Afterwards they took the buffalo away and we watched as the lions padded along hopefully down the road behind them.

The Lion 'shows' were stopped a long while ago as it was regarded as 'degrading' for the lions, though actually I found the whole human/lion relationship- on all its various levels, very interesting. They do NOT(normally) attack people- we had a lioness and cubs walk very close to us, and followed them when they went to drink in a stream- no aggression or interest from them at all. Yet these were truly wild animals nonetheless. They are actually very attractive cats too- a beautiful pale grey/fawn in colour- very different from the darker 'tawny' colour of African lions. We were taken one morning by trackers to see an adult male- he was sitting by the roadside like a sphinx- the most he did was snarl- then get up and walk away into the forest.
 
No that's it sorry. I know that Chandani, the previous female had about 13 cubs!! She did very well. Jake, the father, moved to the continent I think. He's probably dead now though.....
 
Jake was the original male, the brother of the breeding male who used to be at London. I think there is a plaque on the eastern side of the enclosure with all their names on, I'll look when I next go.
 
grantsmb said:
Did you get to the Gir Forest? .......
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no i was tempted, but instead passed straight through the state, and to be honest am a little glad i did!

thats very interesting stuff you say about the lions being rather docile. its seems hard to get some straight information on the difference between the lion subspecies, with lots of conflicting info. i have heard about the "bell folds" but never a real mention of colour variation. are the purebred animals in zoos a true reflection of their wild ancestors in terms of appearance?

unfortunately i never saw a wild tiger in india, nor a leopard in sri lanka. in fact, i have never seen a wild cat before at all!
 
Yep pat,

There is a definite difference between Asiatic lions Panthera leo persicus and all other lions of African origin. The manes in the Asiatics are quite specific and so is the pale grey coat colour. This all makes the Asiatics really stand out.

Speaking of genetics: did you all know that both tigers and lions have lately been shown to be almost as narrowly diverse genetically as cheetahs ....! Popular opinion was that only cheetahs have gone through a severe genetic bottleneck. But it appears both tiger and lion have seen similar events in their lifelines. If you find this worth your while we could go into this a little deeper!
 
jelle said:
Yep pat,

There is a definite difference between Asiatic lions Panthera leo persicus and all other lions of African origin. The manes in the Asiatics are quite specific and so is the pale grey coat colour. This all makes the Asiatics really stand out.

Another difference between the too is the tail tuff is somewhat larger in the Asiatics
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jelle said:
Yep pat,

There is a definite difference between Asiatic lions Panthera leo persicus and all other lions of African origin. The manes in the Asiatics are quite specific and so is the pale grey coat colour. This all makes the Asiatics really stand out.
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.. and another difference I have just discovered- not only(as Mark said) the bigger tail and elbow tufts, but the whole tail is THICKER apparently than an African lion's (I haven't tried to measure one ;)...)

Pat- Regarding the coat colour- the captive Asians are all of this same colour too as it it is certainly a feature of the subspecies.

Interestingly, 'Barbary' lions were also supposed to be grayish in colour and they were one of subspecies closest in genotype to the Asian lion.
 
patrick said:
no i was tempted, but instead passed straight through the state, and to be honest am a little glad i did!
unfortunately i never saw a wild tiger in india, nor a leopard in sri lanka. in fact, i have never seen a wild cat before at all!
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At least with the Gir Lions, you can guarantee you will see them- even if you have to wait a while... With Tiger there's never that certainty.

My first trip to India, we saw the Lions, and also a Leopard on a night drive in South India. It was lying down on a sandy road and we picked it up the headlights- they do this because the sand retains heat after dark apparently. It got up and walked off. We didn't see Tiger that trip, but HEARD one calling one night in the forest(south India). Very evocative- AAAouuugh... AAAouuugh... AAouuugh- and not that far off either.

I had to wait till the 2nd trip before I saw TIger- in Kaziranga. You can visit the Sanctuary everyday for days at a stretch and still not see one though. I was lucky- we rounded a corner in the jeep one morning and the forest guard whispers 'Tiger'! and there it was strolling along the trail ahead in the sunlight- I saw another too- a long distance away but watched it for longer, about twenty minutes. It was stalking Hog Deer but didn't make a kill. Both sightings were about the same time of day- about 10 a.m in the morning.

I know in some reserves they make finding a tiger easier by having trackers with two way radios to radio in and mark a tiger's location and then bring the tourists out to see it. I'm glad I didn't have to see one that way -but they are very difficult to find otherwise.
 
Asian/African Lion distinguishing features.

I think if you had profile photos of an adult male African and Asian lion side by side you would clearly see the differences. Similarly if you had photos of females of both races to compare against each other too.

The Asian's colour is distinctive- a sort of ashy gray- compare with the lion on the ZooBeat Forum logo- he is tawny brown.
The male Asian lion's mane covers a similar area on the head and shoulders, but is generally scraggier. The Asian's tail is apparently thicker. The tail tuft and elbow tufts are thicker/bigger. The belly fold is quite pronounced.
 
One other thing Grant, what about size & weight wise, any idea how they they stack up against each other?
 
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