Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2024

Jambo said:
Following Willow’s death, I remember asking a keeper whether Num Oi would be bred from again; this would have been around 2017 ish shortly after Bong Su’s death. He advised me that the zoo was moving away from AI at that point on time, which is a decision that Melbourne still seems to stand firm on to this point in time. I recall bringing up Putra Mas and he told me the region was indeed aiming to increase the number of his offspring, however it wouldn’t be through AI (at least at Melbourne).

Who was the other female available for AI?

In regards to Porntip’s next calf it’s yet to be seen whether she will in fact breed again. She already has an adult son and adolescent daughter at Dubbo which could be sufficient for future representation. She’s also now in her early 30’s. I’m saying that I personally would hope she would be given the opportunity to bred once more. Being on site, Gung is the obvious candidate to mate with her naturally.
Click to expand...

The other Melbourne cow available for AI would have had to have been Dokkoon. Kulab was removed from the breeding programme following the delivery of Ongard in 2010 and Mali would have only been four years old in 2014, meaning she can also be discounted.

Dokkoon delivered Man Jai in December 2013, so would have resumed cycling around late 2014. How amazing would it have been if Dokkoon had had three back to back calves - I was already impressed she had Mali and Man Jai so close.

Melbourne were actually looking at doing AI using Gung around late 2019. It was abandoned due to him having irregular musth cycles which disrupted the plans. Covid then hit and Luk Chai was sent in his place. I don’t know what cow they were planning to do AI with but Num-Oi or Dokkoon are the most likely due to the desire to have a calf from Num-Oi; and it then being six years since Dokkoon last gave birth.
 
Zoofan15 said:
The other Melbourne cow available for AI would have had to have been Dokkoon. Kulab was removed from the breeding programme following the delivery of Ongard in 2010 and Mali would have only been four years old in 2014, meaning she can also be discounted.

Dokkoon delivered Man Jai in December 2013, so would have resumed cycling around late 2014. How amazing would it have been if Dokkoon had had three back to back calves - I was already impressed she had Mali and Man Jai so close.

Melbourne were actually looking at doing AI using Gung around late 2019. It was abandoned due to him having irregular musth cycles which disrupted the plans. Covid then hit and Luk Chai was sent in his place. I don’t know what cow they were planning to do AI with but Num-Oi or Dokkoon are the most likely due to the desire to have a calf from Num-Oi; and it then being six years since Dokkoon last gave birth.
Click to expand...
I had thought Kulab was perhaps a chance; but then again, if she was in breeding talks it's likely she would've definitely been AI'd around the same time as Num Oi. At makes sense for Dokkoon's to have been delayed as she only just delivered Man Jai. She concieved Man Jai roughly two years following Mali's birth, so early 2016 for her would've probably fit that timeline.

In saying that, I noticed Melbourne always attempted to have two females calf around the same time. First Dokkoon and Kulab as Num Oi wasn't yet of age. And then Num Oi and Dokkoon. Following the death of Num Oi's calf, she unfortunately had to breed again but at the time none of the other cows could have bred. It also seemed like their next cohort would've been planned for around 2019, assuming Bong Su never passed. With Kulab non breeding, it would've likely been Num Oi and Dokkoon again. Then perhaps Num Oi and Mali in 2022.

It's a real shame Kulab was removed from the breeding program as she would've been a great candidate for AI from Putra Mas later on; and would've therefore likely calved around 2016, and then likely again with the last cohort. Although three calves are amazing, seeing four calves would've been phenomenal!

It's also intruiging to know Melbourne were toying with the idea of using Gung with AI. I know they planned to acquire Luk Chai as early as 2019 too, so it seems using Gung for AI was dropped in favor for acquiring Luk Chai (Gung's son), a far more effective solution.
 
Zoofan15 said:
It would have been nice if Taronga had been able to sync the pregnancies of Porntip and Thong Dee to have both given birth in 2016. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, Sabai being two years older than Kanlaya presented a range of challenges.

The bull I’d most like to see enter the breeding programme is Pathi Harn. His father Bong Su had four sons - two are deceased; and one was exported to the US. Pathi Harn is therefore his father’s only son in the region and his mother is only represented via her two offspring (unlike Thong Dee, who has two sons and three grandchildren; with the promise of more at Werribee).

We can expect to see Luk Chai sire three more calves at Werribee; but beyond that is anyone’s guess. Were Thong Dee to conceive another calf (unlikely), we could near guarantee Pathi Harn would be the sire given it’d be undesirable to have three Gung x Thong Dee sons. Pathi Harn could also sire Anjalee’s next calf.

Gung and Porntip would be a match not previously made in the region - making her the first cow to have calves by all three founder bulls!
Click to expand...
Back to the whole founder conversation, here's what the current descendant tally looks like. ZAA has always wanted to keep the gene pool balanced.

Bulls:

Bong Su - 3 descendants (two offspring 1.1, one grandchild 1.0)
Putra Mas - 1 descendant (single offspring 0.1)
Gung - 5 descendants (two offspring 2.0, three grandchildren 1.2)

Cows:

Porntip - 2 descendants (two offspring 1.1)
Pak Boon - None
Dokkoon - 3 descendants (two offspring 0.2, one grandchild 1.0)
Thong Dee - 5 descendants (two offspring 2.0, three grandchildren 1.2)
Num Oi - 1 descendant (single offspring, 0.1)

Looking at the above list, it's essential for Putra Mas to breed again. Relying on his daughter for future representation would be the wrong move. It seems your also right on the money regarding Pathi Harn, breeding from him seems to be the next step. I'm a fan of pairing him with Thong Dee who although is well represented would be good to have a daughter from.

Pak Boon needs to breed too. I'm not sure of plans with her, but I'd hope they are looking at it at Monarto. Either naturally or through AI with Putra. Num Oi too. I'm excited to hear she will be given another chance once they arrive at Werribee. Another daughter from her would do dividends.

Dokkoon breeding once more is also good. In the long term her line seems very well satisfied with two daughters and at least one more calf.

Porntip absolutely needs to breed again. Son or daughter, the intention was always to get at least three calves from each founder cow. With Tang Mo never breeding and Kulab being removed from the breeding program, the number should supposedly increase...
 
Jambo said:
I had thought Kulab was perhaps a chance; but then again, if she was in breeding talks it's likely she would've definitely been AI'd around the same time as Num Oi. At makes sense for Dokkoon's to have been delayed as she only just delivered Man Jai. She concieved Man Jai roughly two years following Mali's birth, so early 2016 for her would've probably fit that timeline.

In saying that, I noticed Melbourne always attempted to have two females calf around the same time. First Dokkoon and Kulab as Num Oi wasn't yet of age. And then Num Oi and Dokkoon. Following the death of Num Oi's calf, she unfortunately had to breed again but at the time none of the other cows could have bred. It also seemed like their next cohort would've been planned for around 2019, assuming Bong Su never passed. With Kulab non breeding, it would've likely been Num Oi and Dokkoon again. Then perhaps Num Oi and Mali in 2022.

It's a real shame Kulab was removed from the breeding program as she would've been a great candidate for AI from Putra Mas later on; and would've therefore likely calved around 2016, and then likely again with the last cohort. Although three calves are amazing, seeing four calves would've been phenomenal!

It's also intruiging to know Melbourne were toying with the idea of using Gung with AI. I know they planned to acquire Luk Chai as early as 2019 too, so it seems using Gung for AI was dropped in favor for acquiring Luk Chai (Gung's son), a far more effective solution.
Click to expand...
I'm equally surprised to hear Gung was going to be used for AI. He was trained yes, but he wasn't the most cooperative with the procedure. Tukta's death the previous year may have played apart in this decision.

I seem to remember it was only discovered around 2014 that it wouldn't be in Kulab's best interests to breed from her again. This was around the time they were planning to AI her again. Therefore you would be right in saying she would have birthed in 2016, same time as Num Oi did.

As I said in my post above, the intention was to get at least three calves from each founder cow. So that's a whooping 21 calves in total. Don't know how they planned to accommodate all those elephants but Werribee and Dubbo were always going to serve as support to the breeding program.
 
Trua said:
Back to the whole founder conversation, here's what the current descendant tally looks like. ZAA has always wanted to keep the gene pool balanced.

Bulls:

Bong Su - 3 descendants (two offspring 1.1, one grandchild 1.0)
Putra Mas - 1 descendant (single offspring 0.1)
Gung - 5 descendants (two offspring 2.0, three grandchildren 1.2)

Cows:

Porntip - 2 descendants (two offspring 1.1)
Pak Boon - None
Dokkoon - 3 descendants (two offspring 0.2, one grandchild 1.0)
Thong Dee - 5 descendants (two offspring 2.0, three grandchildren 1.2)
Num Oi - 1 descendant (single offspring, 0.1)

Looking at the above list, it's essential for Putra Mas to breed again. Relying on his daughter for future representation would be the wrong move. It seems your also right on the money regarding Pathi Harn, breeding from him seems to be the next step. I'm a fan of pairing him with Thong Dee who although is well represented would be good to have a daughter from.

Pak Boon needs to breed too. I'm not sure of plans with her, but I'd hope they are looking at it at Monarto. Either naturally or through AI with Putra. Num Oi too. I'm excited to hear she will be given another chance once they arrive at Werribee. Another daughter from her would do dividends.

Dokkoon breeding once more is also good. In the long term her line seems very well satisfied with two daughters and at least one more calf.

Porntip absolutely needs to breed again. Son or daughter, the intention was always to get at least three calves from each founder cow. With Tang Mo never breeding and Kulab being removed from the breeding program, the number should supposedly increase...
Click to expand...

It would have been a good move to have allowed Porntip and Thong Dee to have conceived alongside Anjalee. Aside from the social benefits discussed in previous posts, it would extend the option to breed from these two cows for another decade. Thong Dee’s window is narrowing (eight years since her last birth) and Porntip will soon be in the same boat. The number of descendants you list above emphasise the importance of breeding from Porntip.

As things stand, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Dubbo align Anjalee’s second calf with Kanlaya’s first calf. The plan is apparently to breed from Kanlaya when she’s 12 years old (to give birth at 14 years).

That’s interesting to know the original plan was for each of the cows to have three offspring. Dokkoon was the first to achieve this, but has sadly lost Man Jai; while Num-Oi has also welcomed three calves, albeit losing the first two. I’d anticipate a fourth and final calf from Dokkoon; but Num-Oi would probably be allowed to have another two - especially if the next calf is male. Two daughters per female minimum would offer a good chance of a flourishing matriline.
 
Trua said:
Back to the whole founder conversation, here's what the current descendant tally looks like. ZAA has always wanted to keep the gene pool balanced.

Bulls:

Bong Su - 3 descendants (two offspring 1.1, one grandchild 1.0)
Putra Mas - 1 descendant (single offspring 0.1)
Gung - 5 descendants (two offspring 2.0, three grandchildren 1.2)

Cows:

Porntip - 2 descendants (two offspring 1.1)
Pak Boon - None
Dokkoon - 3 descendants (two offspring 0.2, one grandchild 1.0)
Thong Dee - 5 descendants (two offspring 2.0, three grandchildren 1.2)
Num Oi - 1 descendant (single offspring, 0.1)

Looking at the above list, it's essential for Putra Mas to breed again. Relying on his daughter for future representation would be the wrong move. It seems your also right on the money regarding Pathi Harn, breeding from him seems to be the next step. I'm a fan of pairing him with Thong Dee who although is well represented would be good to have a daughter from.

Pak Boon needs to breed too. I'm not sure of plans with her, but I'd hope they are looking at it at Monarto. Either naturally or through AI with Putra. Num Oi too. I'm excited to hear she will be given another chance once they arrive at Werribee. Another daughter from her would do dividends.

Dokkoon breeding once more is also good. In the long term her line seems very well satisfied with two daughters and at least one more calf.

Porntip absolutely needs to breed again. Son or daughter, the intention was always to get at least three calves from each founder cow. With Tang Mo never breeding and Kulab being removed from the breeding program, the number should supposedly increase...
Click to expand...
Although Thong Dee does have five descendants, three are still young and in the EEHV danger zone still. Her only two offspring are two males too. Sabai could easily be exported. He's very valuable to the North American population (unrelated to Ongard). Whilst at the moment they aren't in need, in a decades time they most certainly will be with a lot of the founding bulls passing on.

I do wonder if the three calf from each founder cow idea is still in play. Perhaps not, but Dokkoon will achieve this yet again if she does breed again in the coming years. Num Oi will hopefully achieve this too; Werribee's facilities will certainly be able to accommodate this. Pak Boon hopefully too, if allowed to breed at natural intervals.

Thong Dee and Porntip are both one calf away, and imo there's no reason why they shouldn't be given the chance to have another calf. Porntip has a strong case as you outline, and a daughter from Thong Dee would be beneficial. My fingers are crossed that both females will deliver shortly after Anjalee although I do wonder whether Dubbo are being cautious regarding Gung's representation. If they want to breed Porntip naturally, he is the only option on site at the moment.
 
Jambo said:
Although Thong Dee does have five descendants, three are still young and in the EEHV danger zone still. Her only two offspring are two males too. Sabai could easily be exported. He's very valuable to the North American population (unrelated to Ongard). Whilst at the moment they aren't in need, in a decades time they most certainly will be with a lot of the founding bulls passing on.

I do wonder if the three calf from each founder cow idea is still in play. Perhaps not, but Dokkoon will achieve this yet again if she does breed again in the coming years. Num Oi will hopefully achieve this too; Werribee's facilities will certainly be able to accommodate this. Pak Boon hopefully too, if allowed to breed at natural intervals.

Thong Dee and Porntip are both one calf away, and imo there's no reason why they shouldn't be given the chance to have another calf. Porntip has a strong case as you outline, and a daughter from Thong Dee would be beneficial. My fingers are crossed that both females will deliver shortly after Anjalee although I do wonder whether Dubbo are being cautious regarding Gung's representation. If they want to breed Porntip naturally, he is the only option on site at the moment.
Click to expand...
My suggestion would be to breed Porntip with Gung once more. He now would have four offspring. Pray for a daughter. Porntip now has three calves, satisfying the past requirement. Breed Thong Dee with Pathi Harn, furthering Bong Su's line. This would also give her three calves. Hope for a daughter here too. If both females aren't pregnant already, they need to breed now! Kanlaya and Anjalee can afford to wait a little while longer to concieve again, these cows can't.
 
Trua said:
@Jambo Parentage of Melbourne's cows as promised...

Dokkoon - Chow x Aom Moon
Kulab - Kaew x Thong Dee
Num Oi - Num Sek x Lampoon
Click to expand...

Thanks for this. I will use it when updating the Australasian Asian Elephant Population List in 2025.

What a monumental year it’s been with the loss of New Zealand’s only holder (now the Australian Asian Elephant Population List); the opening of Monarto’s complex; and the announcement of Anjalee’s first pregnancy.
Trua said:
My suggestion would be to breed Porntip with Gung once more. He now would have four offspring. Pray for a daughter. Porntip now has three calves, satisfying the past requirement. Breed Thong Dee with Pathi Harn, furthering Bong Su's line. This would also give her three calves. Hope for a daughter here too. If both females aren't pregnant already, they need to breed now! Kanlaya and Anjalee can afford to wait a little while longer to concieve again, these cows can't.
Click to expand...

Time is definitely not on Thong Dee’s side. The longest birth interval in the region has preciously been nine years between Dokoon’s December 2013 and November 2022 births. She clearly conceived easily (on the first cycle following Luk Chai’s arrival); but once you start getting to 10 years plus, chances are slim. Thong Dee gave birth eight years ago, so that would be a minimum of 10 years between calves assuming she’s not already pregnant.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Thanks for this. I will use it when updating the Australasian Asian Elephant Population List in 2025.

What a monumental year it’s been with the loss of New Zealand’s only holder (now the Australian Asian Elephant Population List); the opening of Monarto’s complex; and the announcement of Anjalee’s first pregnancy.


Time is definitely not on Thong Dee’s side. The longest birth interval in the region has preciously been nine years between Dokoon’s December 2013 and November 2022 births. She clearly conceived easily (on the first cycle following Luk Chai’s arrival); but once you start getting to 10 years plus, chances are slim. Thong Dee gave birth eight years ago, so that would be a minimum of 10 years between calves assuming she’s not already pregnant.
Click to expand...
I'd hope she already is pregnant although if we are assuming she is to be paired with Pathi Harn for her next calf that may explain why she hasn't conceived yet. Pathi isn't a proven bull and wasn't around Gung as much as a calf compared to Luk Chai so he may have some more learning to do. Let's pray they haven't made the choice to not bred from her again....

Anjalee is also due next October/November. She's almost a year into her pregnancy.
 
Jonathan Petersson said:
Is Montaro going to be switching Burma and Permai to full protected contact or are they going to still be working them some in free?
Click to expand...

They’ll be working in protected contact. It’s the way the industry is going and in any case, the aim is for an integrated herd with Pak Boon and Tang Mo, neither who have been managed in protected contact for over a decade.
Trua said:
I'd hope she already is pregnant although if we are assuming she is to be paired with Pathi Harn for her next calf that may explain why she hasn't conceived yet. Pathi isn't a proven bull and wasn't around Gung as much as a calf compared to Luk Chai so he may have some more learning to do. Let's pray they haven't made the choice to not bred from her again....

Anjalee is also due next October/November. She's almost a year into her pregnancy.
Click to expand...

Pathi Harn has been observed mounting the cows during contact sessions, so hopefully this would follow through to a successful mating. I did hear prior to Anjalee conceiving that she was undergoing introductions to both bulls, so whether they attempted to breed her with Pathi Harn and it didn’t result in a successful mating I don’t know. Due to her age it was preferable to get her pregnant sooner rather than later.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Pathi Harn has been observed mounting the cows during contact sessions, so hopefully this would follow through to a successful mating. I did hear prior to Anjalee conceiving that she was undergoing introductions to both bulls, so whether they attempted to breed her with Pathi Harn and it didn’t result in a successful mating I don’t know. Due to her age it was preferable to get her pregnant sooner rather than later.
Click to expand...
I heard it was much rather the opposite. As Anjalee's cycled irregularly Gung was favored being the proven bull. Perhaps Pathi may have been introduced to Anjalee but he wasn't intentionally mated with her.
 
Trua said:
I heard it was much rather the opposite. As Anjalee's cycled irregularly Gung was favored being the proven bull. Perhaps Pathi may have been introduced to Anjalee but he wasn't intentionally mated with her.
Click to expand...

That makes sense as the irregularity of her cycles meant it was advantageous having a proven bull on site. Her irregular cycles complicated the AI attempts attempted at Auckland Zoo, which were of course unsuccessful. Though I was hopeful having bulls on site to cover Anjalee’s irregular cycles would help, it was a relief to hear she was finally pregnant. Fingers crossed for a female calf.

Due to being a Sri Lankan elephant, Anjalee is a large female, so a son from her and Bong Su (the bull used for the aforementioned AI) would have been interesting to see. Gung’s tusks are less impressive than Bong Su and Putra Mas in my opinion (even taking his age into consideration), but Luk Chai clearly gets his height from Gung as it doesn’t come from Thong Dee.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Due to being a Sri Lankan elephant, Anjalee is a large female, so a son from her and Bong Su (the bull used for the aforementioned AI) would have been interesting to see. Gung’s tusks are less impressive than Bong Su and Putra Mas in my opinion (even taking his age into consideration), but Luk Chai clearly gets his height from Gung as it doesn’t come from Thong Dee.
Click to expand...
A son from Pathi Harn and Anjalee would therefore be huge! Pathi not only has an impressive father in Bong Su but also quite a tall and built mother in Porntip. I do wonder how Pathi compares to Gung now. I know Ongard at Miami is also very tall (also the offspring of two tall parents).

Gung was also always known as a bull on the smaller side. His name means ‘prawn’ in Thai, in reference to his small stature, but he was only a young adolescent when he was first imported. No surprise he was the smallest of the five Taronga imports being the youngest! He’s grown into quite a big bull now; not as big as Bong Su, but he’s still decent sized.

On the topic of Anjalee’s AI attempts. I know they planned to use Bong Su circa 2017 but then he unfortunately passed. Would the plan have been to utilise Gung afterwards?
 
Jambo said:
On the topic of Anjalee’s AI attempts. I know they planned to use Bong Su circa 2017 but then he unfortunately passed. Would the plan have been to utilise Gung afterwards?
Click to expand...

The five AI attempts were made between 2017-2019. This source states the first three attempts were made with freshly collected semen:

Kevin Buley: Heartbreaking decision for Auckland Zoo ushers in new beginning for elephants

It’s not mentioned whether all three of these attempts were with Bong Su; but an elephant’s reproductive cycle is usually four months and Bong Su died October 2017, so it’s possible - especially given Anjalee had irregular cycles (i.e. the attempts weren’t necessarily four months apart). They also make reference to the semen being highly viable (with Bong Su being renowned for his fertility).

The fact they state the first three attempts were with fresh semen implies the second two were with stored semen (possibly Bong Su again). This also supports the first three attempts being with Bong Su; as fresh semen is desirable over stored semen and yet they were using stored semen when they had Gung available.

New Zealand biosecurity rules changed late 2019, blocking the import of semen from Australia. MPI documents show the zoo applying to import semen from Europe, which clearly never progressed. This contributed to the decision to phase out elephants, which was announced a year late in 2020.
 
Trua said:
Is there a tier list of which bulls we have that would be the most valuable overseas? I know the Dublin bulls haven't been introduced into the program yet but once they are consideration might be given towards breeding them with more valuable cows one would think to enhance their desirability.
Click to expand...
If we are discounting our two founders there is a decent amount of bulls we have that are. First and foremost, the Sydney bulls don't hold much value; they have relations in both regions. But aside from them, Luk Chai for starters would be a great candidate being a son of two founders unrepresented in both regions; same goes for his full younger brother, Sabai.

The other two bulls, Pathi Harn and Roi Yim, are both descended from the Bong Su line (so related to Ongard, a bull already in the US).In saying that it wouldn't hurt for those regions to gain additional representation considering they're unrelated otherwise.

In order of value, it would look something like: Putra Mas, Gung, Luk Chai/Sabai, Roi Yim, Pathi Harn, Kavi/Ashoka
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top