Australasian Common Chimpanzee Population

[steveroberts]

Oh cool now am aware that there was an alpha between Snowy's death and Lubutu taking up his father's mantle, for some reason I thought there was an alpha drought like until recently, but Gombe filled that role, was he still at the zoo when Lubutu took over?

Yeah so for the last few years (since Lulu's passing?) Spitter would have been the only Chimpanzee to remember the old cramped dingy exhibits if Lisa was only 1 when they opened Chimp' Park for them. Its nice to

 

[Zoofan15]

Oh cool now am aware that there was an alpha between Snowy's death and Lubutu taking up his father's mantle, for some reason I thought there was an alpha drought like until recently, but Gombe filled that role, was he still at the zoo when Lubutu took over?

Yeah so for the last few years (since Lulu's passing?) Spitter would have been the only Chimpanzee to remember the old cramped dingy exhibits if Lisa was only 1 when they opened Chimp' Park for them. Its nice to

Yes, Gombe took over as alpha when Lubutu was six years old, but he died shortly before Lubutu turned eight.

Interestingly, it was Lubutu who sired Samaki (not Gombe), which makes me wonder if Gombe was vasectomised. They vasectomised Lewis in 1995 to avoid competition for Snowy.

Yes, Bessie (died 2011), Lulu (died 2014) and Spitter (died 2022) would be the last with memories of the old exhibit. Spitter was also the first chimpanzee to give birth in the next exhibit (to Sacha in 1980).

 

[steveroberts]

@Zoofan15 It's cool to see Sacha was born soon after the Chimps' moved to 'the park' exhibit, would it be right to say Lisa was the last to be born in the old exh's?

Dod Gombe's passing I take it in '01 mean Lubutu took up the alpha role still fairly young for a Chimp'?

 

[Zoofan15]

@Zoofan15 It's cool to see Sacha was born soon after the Chimps' moved to 'the park' exhibit, would it be right to say Lisa was the last to be born in the old exh's?

Dod Gombe's passing I take it in '01 mean Lubutu took up the alpha role still fairly young for a Chimp'?

Lisa (August 1979) and Bianca (November 1979) were the last surviving infants born in the old exhibit. Two other infants were born in September and November 1979 which didn’t survive.

Yes, Lubutu was incredibly young but he was still the eldest male at almost eight years. Next down was Shabani (1994) and Chimbuka (1995). Shabani was Lubutu’s main rival for many years, with Chimbuka supporting Lubutu as his right hand man.

Sandali (1996) was next down and got hammered from all sides, leading to his transfer in 2008.

 

[steveroberts]

@Zoofan15 Just had very strong memory jog from you about Shabani's constant unsuccesful attempts to oust Lubutu with his younger S brother (and current alpha right?) as his 'right hand Chimp' in the attempts. One of the Taronga tv episodes from 2011 remember watching was the move back to expanded 'Chimp Park' for the group from their temporary living in Jantan and Willow's Orang' exhibit and the social happenings that the keepers were keeping vigilant over like when Chimbuku had to be euthanised (now know why more specifically cos of your info) and the keepers being mindful that Lubutu had lost a strong supporter in maintaining his alpha tenure, though he still had the popular support and approval in his alpha role with the matriarchy elders which meant so much, and very glad to see (though obviously sad his life ended up being cut short by health issues) that Lubutu remained in his alpha role after reading he had a fair temperament and was tolerant of the infant Chimps' even playing with them but from the sounds of it if Shabani had succeeded in taking the alpha role from Lubutu he would have not have had the same calm temperament and treatment of the other Chimps.

 

[Zoofan15]

@Zoofan15 Just had very strong memory jog from you about Shabani's constant unsuccesful attempts to oust Lubutu with his younger S brother (and current alpha right?) as his 'right hand Chimp' in the attempts. One of the Taronga tv episodes from 2011 remember watching was the move back to expanded 'Chimp Park' for the group from their temporary living in Jantan and Willow's Orang' exhibit and the social happenings that the keepers were keeping vigilant over like when Chimbuku had to be euthanised (now know why more specifically cos of your info) and the keepers being mindful that Lubutu had lost a strong supporter in maintaining his alpha tenure, though he was still popular with the matriarchy elders which meant so much and very glad to see (though obviously sad his life ended up being cut short by health issues) that Lubutu remained in his alpha role after reading he had a fair temperament and was tolerant of the infant Chimps' even playing with them but from the sounds of it if Shabani had succeeded in taking the alpha role from Lubutu he would have not have had the same calm temperament and treatment of the other Chimps.

That’s right. Shabani’s younger brother was Samaki (born 2001) and together they were known as the S Boys. They’re both devoted to Shiba and to this day are highly protective of her, but for a long time have operated independently of each other with regards to group politics.

Samaki would have observed Shabani’s attempts to take over (which failed due to his unpopularity) and would have realised supporting him was a lost cause. Instead, he supported Lubutu as the beta male and rose above Shabani in ranking.

This has paid off for Samaki. He sired two infants as the beta male (to be fair, Lubutu was vasectomised) and is now the alpha, supported by Sule - who has similarly overtaken his elder brother.

 

[Jambo]

@Zoofan15 Just had very strong memory jog from you about Shabani's constant unsuccesful attempts to oust Lubutu with his younger S brother (and current alpha right?) as his 'right hand Chimp' in the attempts. One of the Taronga tv episodes from 2011 remember watching was the move back to expanded 'Chimp Park' for the group from their temporary living in Jantan and Willow's Orang' exhibit and the social happenings that the keepers were keeping vigilant over like when Chimbuku had to be euthanised (now know why more specifically cos of your info) and the keepers being mindful that Lubutu had lost a strong supporter in maintaining his alpha tenure, though he still had the popular support and approval in his alpha role with the matriarchy elders which meant so much, and very glad to see (though obviously sad his life ended up being cut short by health issues) that Lubutu remained in his alpha role after reading he had a fair temperament and was tolerant of the infant Chimps' even playing with them but from the sounds of it if Shabani had succeeded in taking the alpha role from Lubutu he would have not have had the same calm temperament and treatment of the other Chimps.

That episode, I too have watched and is a quite amazing one too!. Shabani actually put up a strong fight without any major supporters (although he did receive some from his then teenage brother, Samaki). The only reason he wasn't accepted in the end was due to the fact that most of the group didn't like him. He would've been a rather tyrannical alpha male.

 

[steveroberts]

@Jambo @Zoofan15 I don't know anything about Samki's nature besides backing his older brother for a long time (thanks for reminding me what Samaki's name is) but can imagine it's much better that Samaki is now the alpha rather than Shabani since Lubutu's death.

It seems the other Chimps were a good judge of character if they generally showed a dislike for Shabani, though its obviously not a nice feeling being disliked and perhaps the rejection only compelled him to be more aggressive in nature; though strongly suspect I may be unknowingly anthropomorphising Shabani's experience there, though Chimpanzees are phenomenally similar to us humans.

 

[Zoofan15]

@Jambo @Zoofan15 I don't know anything about Samki's nature besides backing his older brother for a long time (thanks for reminding me what Samaki's name is) but can imagine it's much better that Samaki is now the alpha rather than Shabani since Lubutu's death

Typical of most adolescent males, Samaki was a lot of bluff. As an adolescent, he was constantly harassing the females and making a nuisance of himself, but matured and made a supportive beta to Lubutu’s alpha. He was particularly useful in keeping Furahi (2003) in check, who somewhat antagonistic as an adolescent/young adult.

Following Lubutu’s passing, Samaki was reluctant to assume the alpha role. He liked being second in command as it came with benefits, but no pressure. He conceded after two years and Sule’s support as beta. He’s well liked by almost all the females in the community.

Shabani now occupies a low ranking position in the male hierarchy - just above the incoming males (Fumo, Sudi, Liwali). He’s accepted his position and causes few issues.

 

[steveroberts]

@Zoofan15 Its good to hear that Shabani currently behaves and interacts 'in check' so to speak and is no longer an antagonist, now kind of feel sorry for him a little bit about his current living experience as a low ranking male, though also strongly feel and agree that no one likes a violent tyrant so at the same time very relieved he never succeeded to the alpha role. Sounds like Samki is the right kind of alpha to have, one reluctant at first to be the leader, that's I'd guess the best sort of temperament of character for a fair alpha Chimp'. Wonder how things are going to pan out for Fumo, Sudi and Liwali for their general living experience within the group. Hey what is Sule's familial relation to Samaki?

 

[Zoofan15]

It seems the other Chimps were a good judge of character if they generally showed a dislike for Shabani, though its obviously not a nice feeling being disliked and perhaps the rejection only compelled him to be more aggressive in nature; though strongly suspect I may be unknowingly anthropomorphising Shabani's experience there, though Chimpanzees are phenomenally similar to us humans.

Chimpanzees are an excellent judge of character. An interesting case was Sacha, she disliked Lubutu (due to Lubutu’s campaign against her son), but disliked Shabani even more. She therefore supported Lubutu as the lesser of two evils.

One of Lubutu’s biggest challenges in assuming the alpha role was Shiba. She refused to accept Lubutu as the alpha, given he wasn’t even eight years old. I suspect she also realised he was the main obstacle standing in the way of her son (a year younger) in becoming alpha. Despite this, she had two offspring with him - Samaki in 2001 and Sembe in 2008.

 

[Jambo]

Hey what is Sule's familial relation to Samaki?

They have different mothers, but both share the same father, Lubutu.

 

[steveroberts]

@Zoofan15 So Samaki use to support his older brother against his own sire for a time; its interesting seeing how the individuals are related/were related within the community but am also very aware that what matters within Chimpanzee communities is who your dam is not your sire.

 

[Zoofan15]

@Zoofan15 Its good to hear that Shabani currently behaves and interacts 'in check' so to speak and is no longer an antagonist, now kind of feel sorry for him a little bit about his current living experience as a low ranking male, though also strongly feel and agree that no one likes a violent tyrant so at the same time very relieved he never succeeded to the alpha role. Sounds like Samki is the right kind of alpha to have, one reluctant at first to be the leader, that's I'd guess the best sort of temperament of character for a fair alpha Chimp'. Wonder how things are going to pan out for Fumo, Sudi and Liwali for their general living experience within the group. Hey what is Sule's familial relation to Samaki?

Samaki and Sule are half brothers. They were both sired by Lubutu but have different mothers. Shiba is the mother of Shabani and Samaki; but Sacha is the mother of Shikamoo and Sule. It’s interesting how neither set of brothers worked together.

I think Fumo could be the one to watch. He’s smart, large in size and popular within the community. I’m guessing he’ll either team up with his brother Furahi or bide his time and make his own bid for alpha. Samaki is 21 this year, so probably has a maximum of 10 years ahead of him as alpha.

 

[Zoofan15]

@Zoofan15 So Samaki use to support his older brother against his own sire for a time; its interesting seeing how the individuals are related/were related within the community but am also very aware that what matters within Chimpanzee communities is who your dam is not your sire.

Samaki didn’t support Shabani for long. It was more of a lingering family tie than a political move versus Chimbuka who supported Lubutu as he was orphaned and had no family support himself. Chimbuka had a tough adolescence.

That’s very true, paternity is often ambiguous and the strongest bond is between a mother and her adults sons, who also elevate her status.

 

[Jambo]

@Zoofan15 So Samaki use to support his older brother against his own sire for a time; its interesting seeing how the individuals are related/were related within the community but am also very aware that what matters within Chimpanzee communities is who your dam is not your sire.

Samaki did use to support Shabani before shifting to supporting Lubutu. I believe it was mainly due to them just sharing the same mother and coming from the same maternal line, rather than an actual relationship.

Sire can matter too at times, although i'm not sure the chimps know exactly who their father is! Lubutu was apparently close to his father, Snowy, and often admired him. One of Lubutu's favourite places to sit was 'Snowy's rock' which used to be his father's too.

 

[steveroberts]

@Jambo Oh yeah Snowy's favourite rock, I learnt about that very very recently from @Zoofan15's detailed bio of Snowy, it's cool to see that Lubutu admired Snowy and emulated him in many ways it seems with his favourite rock and temperament. Poor old Snowy with his very painful near arm severing by Lulu and from what it sounds like the infant who cried out to his mother Lulu did so by being anxious but not by any harsh interaction on Snowy's behalf. And then the manner in which poor Snowy drowned in the moat, him being in that spot at that time to begin with in an attempt to intervene in a conflict and then being knocked in, quite a life story indeed and the keepers I can imagine would of felt his loss too but also the experience of having him become an alpha from being an outside arriver from the group having come from Wellington and the long integrating process that you/that ZooFan mentioned with him.

In regards to feelings towards Lubutu from Sacha and Shiba I had to smile with the mention of supporting the lesser of two evils in Sacha's case and even with Shiba and her reluctance to accept Lubutu in favoring Shabani her own son as potential alpha but still going on to have babies sired by Lubutu. Sorry if this has already been documented by you guys on here but is Sacha a sibling of Shiba's or a daughter of hers?

 

[Zoofan15]

@Jambo Oh yeah Snowy's favourite rock, I learnt about that very very recently from @Zoofan15's detailed bio of Snowy, it's cool to see that Lubutu admired Snowy and emulated him in many ways it seems with his favourite rock and temperament. Poor old Snowy with his very painful near arm severing by Lulu and from what it sounds like the infant who cried out to his mother Lulu did so by being anxious but not by any harsh interaction on Snowy's behalf. And then the manner in which poor Snowy drowned in the moat, him being in that spot at that time to begin with in an attempt to intervene in a conflict and then being knocked in, quite a life story indeed and the keepers I can imagine would of felt his loss too but also the experience of having him become an alpha from being an outside arriver from the group having come from Wellington and the long integrating process that you/that ZooFan mentioned with him.

In regards to feelings towards Lubutu from Sacha and Shiba I had to smile with the mention of supporting the lesser of two evils in Sacha's case and even with Shiba and her reluctance to accept Lubutu in favoring Shabani her own son as potential alpha but still going on to have babies sired by Lubutu. Sorry if this has already been documented by you guys on here but is Sacha a sibling of Shiba's or a daughter of hers?

Sacha and Shiba are half siblings through their sire (Jo Jo). Sacha was born 1980 to Spitter; Shiba was born 1981 to Susie.

Snowy had a tough introduction to the community which took close to five years to achieve. Taronga admitted bringing him in without any support is something they wouldn’t do again and indeed the next two chimps arrived as a pair (Koko and Sandra); followed by sisters, Ceres and Naomi in 2015.

Snowy was poorly socialised and his days as alpha was numbered from day one as he was essentially a family unit on his own.

Ceres and Naomi are an invaluable support to each other, especially following the births of their infants in 2017 and 2020.

 

[Jambo]

@Jambo Oh yeah Snowy's favourite rock, I learnt about that very very recently from @Zoofan15's detailed bio of Snowy, it's cool to see that Lubutu admired Snowy and emulated him in many ways it seems with his favourite rock and temperament. Poor old Snowy with his very painful near arm severing by Lulu and from what it sounds like the infant who cried out to his mother Lulu did so by being anxious but not by any harsh interaction on Snowy's behalf. And then the manner in which poor Snowy drowned in the moat, him being in that spot at that time to begin with in an attempt to intervene in a conflict and then being knocked in, quite a life story indeed and the keepers I can imagine would of felt his loss too but also the experience of having him become an alpha from being an outside arriver from the group having come from Wellington and the long integrating process that you/that ZooFan mentioned with him.

In regards to feelings towards Lubutu from Sacha and Shiba I had to smile with the mention of supporting the lesser of two evils in Sacha's case and even with Shiba and her reluctance to accept Lubutu in favoring Shabani her own son as potential alpha but still going on to have babies sired by Lubutu. Sorry if this has already been documented by you guys on here but is Sacha a sibling of Shiba's or a daughter of hers?

It's actually interesting as Shiba actually really liked Lubutu, and in the end, had to support her sons over him. She was quite happy once Samaki took up the beta role behind Lubutu, which allowed her to support both at the same time.

Sacha is the daughter of Jojo and Spitter. Shiba is the daughter of Jojo and Susie. Jojo is the offspring of Bobby and Fifi, and sired a lot of the infants born during the 70's and early 80's. Spitter is also the daughter of Sailor (who she got her name from), and Biddy. So, technically there are two 's' lines at Taronga which is where the confusion comes in. One is descended from Susie, and the other from Biddy, through her daughter, Spitter.

 

[steveroberts]

@Zoofan15 Lol I'm a goose, you made clear mention of Spitter's offspring just now with your post detailing her family legacy and the likes, my bad.

Good reading your mention of the keepers and co at Taronga reflecting on how Snowy's experience was coming to live with the group and how they have done things differently with arriving Chimps in the last decade or so (would like to acknowledge the hard work of their keepers too and the big undertaking it was over five years slowly having Snowy integrated and slowly accepted {though from the sounds of it not entirely accepted} into the group) poor old (well shouldnt say old as he was young still when he died) Snowy, he too left his legacy mark too from what you've pointed out, even just focusing on Lubutu's 'reign'.

Makes complete sense now that you mention it of the approach when attempting to introduce new Chimpanzee's to a group is to bring in related new Chimpanzees together when undertaking attempts at introducing new Chimps's to a group.