Australian and ( NZ) Elephants news and discussion

Zoofan15 said:
I can’t even see a transition happening. The import of 0.3 Asian elephants to Melbourne Zoo; and 1.4 Asian elephants to Taronga Zoo in 2006 was no easy task and cost millions of dollars. They are the founders of what has been a successful breeding programme and are the biggest draw cards of the Taronga and Zoos Victoria societies.

While the Sumatran elephant subspecies is indeed more at risk than the Indian subspecies, the cost to import would be huge and bring in zero financial benefits to the zoos involved.

To the general public (half of which can’t even distinguish between an African and Asian elephant), an elephant is an elephant and they’d be just as happy with the ones they see now. The attachment of the public to the individuals in our region’s zoos is not to be underestimated; and many would be upset to see them depart. The PR backlash of phasing them out could potentially be huge, and obviously detrimental.
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"The attachment of the public to the individuals in our region’s zoos is not to be underestimated; and many would be upset to see them depart. The PR backlash of phasing them out could potentially be huge, and obviously detrimental."

I hate this stuff, I completely agree that financially it probably wouldnt work. But the fact that zoos have to bend to the will of the public which doesnt know one elephant from another is everything that is wrong with zoos these days. Either they inflect sad human emotions onto nonhuman creatures with unfounded opinions about captivity because they watched free willy. Or they give it a cute name and ignore the species for the individual visiting the zoo just to goo at it through the mesh..
 
DelacoursLangur said:
"The attachment of the public to the individuals in our region’s zoos is not to be underestimated; and many would be upset to see them depart. The PR backlash of phasing them out could potentially be huge, and obviously detrimental."

I hate this stuff, I completely agree that financially it probably wouldnt work. But the fact that zoos have to bend to the will of the public which doesnt know one elephant from another is everything that is wrong with zoos these days. Either they inflect sad human emotions onto nonhuman creatures with unfounded opinions about captivity because they watched free willy. Or they give it a cute name and ignore the species for the individual visiting the zoo just to goo at it through the mesh..
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The positive side of this is that these people come in masses to see these animals; and whether they care about conservation or not, contribute indirectly through ticket sales (many zoos have a policy of donating part of the entry fee to the conservation funds they support). Many of these people would never otherwise donate directly to a conservation initiative in their own country (let alone one overseas).
 
Zoofan15 said:
The positive side of this is that these people come in masses to see these animals; and whether they care about conservation or not, contribute indirectly through ticket sales (many zoos have a policy of donating part of the entry fee to the conservation funds they support). Many of these people would never otherwise donate directly to a conservation initiative in their own country (let alone one overseas).
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I would love to see a cost/benefit analysis of star attraction exhibits such as elephants. If they are actually a net positive for conservation funding then im all for them at every zoo :D
 
The Brisbane Times has publicized that the Sydney Zoo has plans to import two elephants from the Dublin Zoo.

'Grand old dame' to get elephant companions after circus life | Brisbane Times

I'm very surprised that the Sydney Zoo would want to import two elephants from Ireland rather than acquire another elephant from an institution in the region. Now the major question is: Which two elephants will be imported to Australia? The Sydney Zoo is hoping to acquire two cows however it's very unlikely that Dublin would break up their matriarchal herd. That leaves the four young bulls in the Dublin Zoo's herd: Kavi, Ashoka, Kabir, and Sanjay. Sanjay and Kabir are too young to leave the herd yet as they are only two and nearly three years old, respectively. Kavi and Ashoka are the most likely to be imported as both adolescent bulls are nearly six years old, are nearing maturity, and need to be moved to prevent inbreeding. It'll be interesting to see which two elephants are expected to be imported in the coming months.
 
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Personally I don’t believe we need new bulls in the region at this point in time. First of all, we currently have two mature bulls in the region and each is unrelated to every cow in the region of reproductive age. Adding the adolescent bulls we have into the mix, there’s multiple options for sustaining the regional population for several decades, without needing new imports.

Secondly, the lack of breeding and large intervals between calves suggests we don’t have the space to accomodate more than what we already have. I’d rather we made decent use of the cows we had rather than importing more and then breeding them once (like Kulab etc.).

If Sydney Zoo import two bulls from Ireland, that seems really pointless when they could have (and should have) taken the two adolescent surplus bulls at Taronga Western Plains Zoo; or Man Jai from Melbourne and Jai Dee from Taronga. This could have been a win-win for all zoos involved.

I also found this comment from the chief executive of Animal Liberation interesting regarding the elderly female Saigon :

“It’ll probably be problematic if they brought out a bull elephant," she said. "She’s too old for that.”

Saying Saigon is to old for breed is stating the obvious; but any respectable zoo learnt decades ago that a bull elephant is not an acceptable companion for a cow of any age.
 
I see your point but what if one or both bulls died?, Bong Su was not that old but now gone these things do happen, I know Torontos African herd bred very well then they lost the bull and with no other bull there all breeding stopped which never recovered. Having such a small founder base is not wise all bar one calf in the country are sired by only two bulls that I know of.
 
Zorro said:
I see your point but what if one or both bulls died?, Bong Su was not that old but now gone these things do happen, I know Torontos African herd bred very well then they lost the bull and with no other bull there all breeding stopped which never recovered. Having such a small founder base is not wise all bar one calf in the country are sired by only two bulls that I know of.
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The sires of living first generation offspring are as follows:

Gung (2000):

1.0 Luk Chai (2009)
1.0 Sabai (2016)
1.0 Jai Dee (2017)

Putra Mas (1989):

0.1 Kanlaya (2018)

Bong Su (Deceased):

0.1 Mali (2010)
1.0 Pathi Harn (2010)
1.0 Man Jai (2013)

I agree it’s potentially risky to hedge everything on the survival of two bulls; but to look at it another way, one of the five first generation bulls could potentially step up to take their place. For example, all three of Gung’s sons are equally as unrelated to all females (except their respective mothers) as Gung and Putra Mas are.

Breeding from the founder bulls is the preference (if available) to sustain the population for the maximum amount of time; but there’s certainly nothing wrong with substituting one of them for a first generation bull when required. It’s the next step once all founder options are exhausted; either by natural means (i.e. Kanlaya breeds with Gung; then her daughter needs a mate) or by the death (removal) of a founder.
 
Zoofan15 said:
The sires of living first generation offspring are as follows:

Gung (2000):

1.0 Luk Chai (2009)
1.0 Sabai (2016)
1.0 Jai Dee (2017)

Putra Mas (1989):

0.1 Kanlaya (2018)

Bong Su (Deceased):

0.1 Mali (2010)
1.0 Pathi Harn (2010)
1.0 Man Jai (2013)

I agree it’s potentially risky to hedge everything on the survival of two bulls; but to look at it another way, one of the five first generation bulls could potentially step up to take their place. For example, all three of Gung’s sons are equally as unrelated to all females (except their respective mothers) as Gung and Putra Mas are.

Breeding from the founder bulls is the preference (if available) to sustain the population for the maximum amount of time; but there’s certainly nothing wrong with substituting one of them for a first generation bull when required. It’s the next step once all founder options are exhausted; either by natural means (i.e. Kanlaya breeds with Gung; then her daughter needs a mate) or by the death (removal) of a founder.
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I do understand your view I just feel shipping out younger bulls is less of a risk than perhaps older or adult bulls who are a greater size and less easy to manage than sub adult bulls, I believe having a back up plan or another option can not hurt!
 
Remember Sydney Zoo is in no position of power to "take" any of Melbourne or Taronga's elephants. Those elephants are owned outright by their respective zoos.

In addition, the elderly elephant currently residing there is not theirs either. She is the last privately owned circus elephant in Australia. She will just be residing there as part of a short-term deal. Just as she resided for some years earlier at Australia Zoo. So Sydney Zoo would be foolish to factor her well-being into any long term investment.

I think it would be safe to assume that Sydney Zoo, a private business, would have preferred to loan some locally bred elephants over spending lots of money importing some from overseas. So lets assume that Taronga and Melbourne said "nup".

So Sydney Zoo would have some pretty limited options. An import from a non-zoo situation in Asia is an enormous undertaking that will take many, many years and can get political.

So if you want animals in a shorter time frame, you are going to need to import direct from an overseas zoo. And I imagine most zoos would still have older post-reproductive animals. Not really what you want to import. And of the few zoos who do have young-breeding age cows, those animals will have been either bred at the zoo as part of a regional breeding program or imported them directly from Asia themselves. In neither of these scenarios could I see the zoo in question willing to trade or sell those animals for export to overseas zoo. They are either part of an existing regional program and much desired within that region or the zoo has just made a huge investment themselves in acquiring them.

But I bet there is more than a few zoos willing to offload a captive-bred young bull or two.
 
kelvin said:
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/en...anions-after-circus-life-20200313-p549vw.html

Possible importation of 2 new elephants from Dublin Zoo.
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Only if the EAZA EEP Commitee would agree and the Species Coordinator have sanctioned the move on the basis of surplus to EEP requirements .... it might happen.

Secondly, EAZA would have to approve Sydney Zoo as a good location. Normal policy is to start a new zoo with a bachelor herd.

Finally, I am not sure if the EAZA is all that keen on the politics around providing an elderly female with companionship only for animal welfare reasons with politicians and animal activism in Oz proclaiming elephants do not belong in zoos moralities.
 
Zoofan15 said:
The sires of living first generation offspring are as follows:

Gung (2000):

1.0 Luk Chai (2009)
1.0 Sabai (2016)
1.0 Jai Dee (2017)

Putra Mas (1989):

0.1 Kanlaya (2018)

Bong Su (Deceased):

0.1 Mali (2010)
1.0 Pathi Harn (2010)
1.0 Man Jai (2013)

I agree it’s potentially risky to hedge everything on the survival of two bulls; but to look at it another way, one of the five first generation bulls could potentially step up to take their place. For example, all three of Gung’s sons are equally as unrelated to all females (except their respective mothers) as Gung and Putra Mas are.

Breeding from the founder bulls is the preference (if available) to sustain the population for the maximum amount of time; but there’s certainly nothing wrong with substituting one of them for a first generation bull when required. It’s the next step once all founder options are exhausted; either by natural means (i.e. Kanlaya breeds with Gung; then her daughter needs a mate) or by the death (removal) of a founder.
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What is the current breeding plan for each individual location 2020+-wise.
 
toothlessjaws said:
I think it would be safe to assume that Sydney Zoo, a private business, would have preferred to loan some locally bred elephants over spending lots of money importing some from overseas. So lets assume that Taronga and Melbourne said "nup".
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If the reports of a rivalry between Taronga and Sydney Zoo are to be believed, that’s a likely assumption. Taronga should have jumped at the chance to offload the adolescent bulls, Luk Chai and Pathi Harn. Aside from currently being surplus to the breeding programme, they represent two spaces at Taronga Western Plains Zoo that could be filled by the breeding of two more calves from Porntip and Thong Dee. This would be enrichment for the herd; support the reproductive health of the cows; generate tens of thousands from the publicity baby elephants attract; and in a worse case scenario, they’d have two male calves to fill the vacant paddock (one or both of the calves might actually be female). It was an obvious win/win for both parties.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
What is the current breeding plan for each individual location 2020+-wise.
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Breeding at Melbourne Zoo has long stagnated, with no attempts of AI since 2014. The herd is scheduled to move to Werribee, so I doubt any breeding will occur before then. Most people agree the logical move is to bring in the bull from Perth, who can breed naturally with the four cows.

At Taronga Western Plains Zoo, they will likely breed from Thong Dee and Porntip again within the next five or six years, maintaining similar birth intervals to their previous calves.

Perth Zoo plan to phase their elephants out once Tricia dies. The younger female is post reproductive and will be relocated; as will the bull. In my opinion, she would be best being relocated to Auckland Zoo as this would bring their herd to three females (their goal); and being younger than Auckland’s matriarch, she would be unlikely to challenge her.

Taronga Zoo are the hardest to predict. There’s increasing pressure on city zoos to phase out their elephants and they could easily send them to their open range sister zoo. I’m not aware of this being on the cards; but with Perth Zoo phasing out elephants and Melbourne preparing to follow suit, it’s not out of the question. Elephants featured in Taronga’s masterplan; but the fact they didn’t feature as a priority project makes me wonder if this was to give them time to evaluate public perception and leave room for a reassessment of what was in their plans for elephants five years ago, is still the direction in which they want to head.
 
Since the elephant pregnancy is nearly two years Melbourne Zoo could import the bull from Perth Zoo and start breeding before the move to Werribee as it would be a long time before the calves are big enough to require additional space. I'm guessing this is on hold because as mentioned on here already Man Jai is still vulnerable to EEHV and they'd be crazy to risk his health when he's only two years away from being out of the main danger zone.

According to this article:

Melbourne Zoo is losing its much loved elephants

Werribee can accommodate up to 15 elephants so hopefully a few calves will be born there. Especially to Kulab who hasn't bred in 10 years and Num Oi who has no living calves but is so maternal.
 
Elephant Enthusiast said:
The Brisbane Times has publicized that the Sydney Zoo has plans to import two elephants from the Dublin Zoo.

'Grand old dame' to get elephant companions after circus life | Brisbane Times

I'm very surprised that the Sydney Zoo would want to import two elephants from Ireland rather than acquire another elephant from an institution in the region. Now the major question is: Which two elephants will be imported to Australia? The Sydney Zoo is hoping to acquire two cows however it's very unlikely that Dublin would break up their matriarchal herd. That leaves the four young bulls in the Dublin Zoo's herd: Kavi, Ashoka, Kabir, and Sanjay. Sanjay and Kabir are too young to leave the herd yet as they are only two and nearly three years old, respectively. Kavi and Ashoka are the most likely to be imported as both adolescent bulls are nearly six years old, are nearing maturity, and need to be moved to prevent inbreeding. It'll be interesting to see which two elephants are expected to be imported in the coming months.
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I think it will be Kavi and Ashoka. Both bulls should already move to another zoo. I doubt they would break the matriarchal group of elephants in Dublin. And I think new bulls are for Australia a great asset. There are three breeding herds, but only one has a bull. Melbourne in particular should breed its cows before moving to Weribee.
 
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