Australian and ( NZ) Elephants news and discussion

[MRJ]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, @MRJ. To reword my previous statement: It's unfortunate that the Taronga Zoo, or any other Australian zoo for that matter, is unwilling to collaborate with the Sydney Zoo pertaining to the acquisition of additional elephants for Sydney's exhibit but, that's the reality of the situation.

Of course both zoos may have good reasons not to move elephants to Sydney Zoo, such as prior commitments, other plans for the animals and so on.

One subject that has been brought up is welfare. I have not seen the elephant enclosures at Sydney Zoo but reports I have seen indicate they were built to meet current minimum requirements and are no better than the current complex at Melbourne Zoo. Yet Zoos Victoria regard the current Melbourne Zoo enclosure as inadequate and are spending many millions on a new complex at Werribee Zoo after which they intend demolishing the Melbourne Zoo complex. They take the welfare of their animals very seriously and I know their policies would not allow them to place animals in a facility which they believe would not meet standards they set themselves.

 

[Yoshistar888]

This is why I don't believe we need new bulls yet. To use Mali (the eldest surviving first generation female) as an example:

Mali (2010)

Unrelated bulls she could breed with:

Putra Mas (1989); Gung (2000); Luk Chai (2009); Sabai (2016); Jai Dee (2017)

Related bulls she can't breed with:

Pathi Harn (2010); Man Jai (2013)

Mali needs to breed before her 24th year (2034). The obvious choice for her first mate is Putra Mas, as he's a founder and is 11 years old than Gung (who is likely to live longer).

Mali is 10 years old now. Assuming she produces a daughter by 2030 at the earliest (she may not breed until she's 16-20; the first calf might not survive; the first calf might be a male etc); then an unrelated mate will not be needed for this female until around 2045-2050.

Unrelated bulls to this 2nd generation female (Mali's daughter):

Gung (2000); Luk Chai (2009); Sabai (2016); Jai Dee (2017)

The obvious choice is Gung (the remaining founder).

It's only when a 3rd generation female of Mali's line needs to breed, that we would have run out of options. This will be in approximately 2070 (give or take 10 years).

This is all assuming average rates of reproduction. On the extreme end of the scale, Mali could produce a daughter at 40 years of age (2050), who in turn could still be producing third generation females by 2090 (note: this would require a son of Gung x a female not from Mali's line as the breeding bull; since Gung won't be alive by 2090).

I think Mali is too busy enjoying herself

(Photo was taken by me on her 10th birthday)

Mali the Asian Elephant

• Yoshistar888
• 21 Mar 2020
• 6

Enjoying enrichment and treats on her birthday.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

This is why I don't believe we need new bulls yet. To use Mali (the eldest surviving first generation female) as an example:

Mali (2010)

Unrelated bulls she could breed with:

Putra Mas (1989); Gung (2000); Luk Chai (2009); Sabai (2016); Jai Dee (2017)

Related bulls she can't breed with:

Pathi Harn (2010); Man Jai (2013)

Mali needs to breed before her 24th year (2034). The obvious choice for her first mate is Putra Mas, as he's a founder and is 11 years old than Gung (who is likely to live longer).

Mali is 10 years old now. Assuming she produces a daughter by 2030 at the earliest (she may not breed until she's 16-20; the first calf might not survive; the first calf might be a male etc); then an unrelated mate will not be needed for this female until around 2045-2050.

Unrelated bulls to this 2nd generation female (Mali's daughter):

Gung (2000); Luk Chai (2009); Sabai (2016); Jai Dee (2017)

The obvious choice is Gung (the remaining founder).

It's only when a 3rd generation female of Mali's line needs to breed, that we would have run out of options. This will be in approximately 2070 (give or take 10 years).

This is all assuming average rates of reproduction. On the extreme end of the scale, Mali could produce a daughter at 40 years of age (2050), who in turn could still be producing third generation females by 2090 (note: this would require a son of Gung x a female not from Mali's line as the breeding bull; since Gung won't be alive by 2090).

Realistically, she Will only breed with the founder bulls, any 2009+ are Well under aged.

BTW: a female may breed Well before age 10 in captivity, allthough 12-15 years is much better and advisable. Hence, she would have to calve at least before 2026!

 

[Zoofan15]

Realistically, she Will only breed with the founder bulls, any 2009+ are Well under aged.

BTW: a female may breed Well before age 10 in captivity, allthough 12-15 years is much better and advisable. Hence, she would have to calve at least before 2026!

I’m aware of that (females as young as six have conceived), though I believe the recommendation in Australasia is 11 years and over. I’m saying the extreme for Mali’s first reproduction is her 24th year i.e. 2034. I’m not saying they will go to the extreme, but I doubt we’ll see a calf from her until she’s at least 16 years (maybe 20).

If they’re mindful of long term population management (which I’m sure they are), they’ll be aware of the need to keep the inter-generational gaps as large as possible. For a first generation bull, this would mean him not breeding until all founder bulls have been exhausted. With cows, we don’t have this luxury (i.e. they HAVE to be bred by 24 years of age). The compromise here is to breed Mali in her late teens.

With this in mind, the sire of her calves (the second generation) will almost certainly be Putra Mas or Gung - because they are founders; not because the first generation bulls are too young. By Luk Chai and Pathi Harn’s age, Gung had sired two calves; and by 2026, even Jai Dee (2017) could potentially breed.

 

[Zorro]

I believe one of Australia zoos new elephant imports is 24?

 

[Zoofan15]

I believe one of Australia zoos new elephant imports is 24?

Edit: Their ages are:

Megawati (20 years)
Widya (18 years)
Christina (9 years)
Raflesia (5 years)

Even assuming that Megawati and Widya haven’t bred before (they might have), they still have at least two years to get things moving with Megawati via AI or the import of a bull.

In a worst case scenario, they could always just breed from the three younger females; though of course it’d be better if all four could contribute to the breeding programme.

 

[Zorro]

View attachment 434310

Edit: Their ages are:

Megawati (20 years)
Widya (18 years)
Christina (9 years)
Raflesia (5 years)

Even assuming that Megawati and Widya haven’t bred before (they might have), they still have at least two years to get things moving with Megawati via AI or the import of a bull.

In a worst case scenario, they could always just breed from the three younger females; though of course it’d be better if all four could contribute to the breeding programme.

Your correct Megs is 20 I hope they do not leave her breeding to late!

 

[toothlessjaws]

View attachment 434310
In a worst case scenario, they could always just breed from the three younger females; though of course it’d be better if all four could contribute to the breeding programme.

When a zoo imports female elephants for an apparent breeding program but no bull it's a pretty massive red flag in my opinion.

 

[Zorro]

When a zoo imports female elephants for an apparent breeding program but no bull it's a pretty massive red flag in my opinion.

Perhaps but what are the options?, they could import a bull but that would take time and I would assume one would of came out with the cows. or they could import semen perhaps from the proven Sumatran bull in Europe?, also some might feel its ok to use the bulls here in the country even if they are not Sumatrans?

 

[Tafin]

Perhaps but what are the options?, they could import a bull but that would take time and I would assume one would of came out with the cows. or they could import semen perhaps from the proven Sumatran bull in Europe?, also some might feel its ok to use the bulls here in the country even if they are not Sumatrans?

I think @toothlessjaws means that they were unable to get elephants from the zoos already in the region so got some from their contacts overseas. I hate to say it but I think he has a point. How hard would it have been to import a bull as well at the same time? But they chose not to.

 

[Tafin]

Is the plan for Man Jai to be going with the the herd to WORZ?

 

[Zoofan15]

Is the plan for Man Jai to be going with the the herd to WORZ?

Last I heard, yes. No date has been given though they said the expansion will occur in the next eight years (2019): Melbourne Zoo is losing its much loved elephants

Pathi Harn (2010), Ongard (2010) and Man Jai (2013) are the only living sons of Bong Su; so now one has been exported (and Bong Su is deceased), the remaining two are reasonably valuable compared to the three sons of Gung (who should have many more decades of reproduction ahead of him).

When founders are exhausted and it comes time to breed from the first generation bulls, I’m predicting it’ll be from Pathi Harn and Man Jai. Ironically, both are the respective brothers of the only two surviving first generation females.

 

[Jambo]

Is the plan for Man Jai to be going with the the herd to WORZ?

Last I heard, yes. No date has been given though they said the expansion will occur in the next eight years (2019): Melbourne Zoo is losing its much loved elephants

Pathi Harn (2010), Ongard (2010) and Man Jai (2013) are the only living sons of Bong Su; so now one has been exported (and Bong Su is deceased), the remaining two are reasonably valuable compared to the three sons of Gung (who should have many more decades of reproduction ahead of him).

When founders are exhausted and it comes time to breed from the first generation bulls, I’m predicting it’ll be from Pathi Harn and Man Jai. Ironically, both are the respective brothers of the only two surviving first generation females.

The elephant move has been scheduled to be part of an expansion which will take place over the next 8 years (2019-2027). The Elephant move will probably be part of the later part of the expansion though.

Man Jai, I would assume, would still be heading to WORZ. The move is still in about at least 5 years time, so things could change between now and then. Man Jai would be about 12-14 at the time, and will certainly already be living separately from the girls at MZ.

I have no idea why MZ has shunted breeding with their elephants for the past 5 years. Kulab hasn’t bred now in 10 years! Perth have shown that they are willing to cooperate with AI from Putra Mas, so all 3 adult cows (Dokkon, Kulab and Num-Oi) in my opinion should be impregnated this year, before it gets to late.

 

[Zorro]

The elephant move has been scheduled to be part of an expansion which will take place over the next 8 years (2019-2027). The Elephant move will probably be part of the later part of the expansion though.

Man Jai, I would assume, would still be heading to WORZ. The move is still in about at least 5 years time, so things could change between now and then. Man Jai would be about 12-14 at the time, and will certainly already be living separately from the girls at MZ.

I have no idea why MZ has shunted breeding with their elephants for the past 5 years. Kulab hasn’t bred now in 10 years! Perth have shown that they are willing to cooperate with AI from Putra Mas, so all 3 adult cows (Dokkon, Kulab and Num-Oi) in my opinion should be impregnated this year, before it gets to late.

I would have to agree considering the amount of trouble it took to import those elephants into Australia not to mention the cost and the fact of how hard it still is to import them I believe leaving such big gaps between calfs in a real waste of breeding time for the program. As for the time table for moving the elephants to Werribee for at least another 5 years is in my view not the better option I feel moving them out to a better place and also to bring over the Perth bull to get the maximum number of calfs

 

[Zoofan15]

I would have to agree considering the amount of trouble it took to import those elephants into Australia not to mention the cost and the fact of how hard it still is to import them I believe leaving such big gaps between calfs in a real waste of breeding time for the program. As for the time table for moving the elephants to Werribee for at least another 5 years is in my view not the better option I feel moving them out to a better place and also to bring over the Perth bull to get the maximum number of calfs

Bearing in mind that gaps of more than 10 years between calves are severely detrimental to reproductive health:

Dokoon (1993) should give birth again no later than 2023

Kulab (2000) should give birth again no later than 2024*

Num Oi (2001) should give birth again no later than 2026

*The interval between calves is negligible until the female exceeds 24 years of age as this is the age a female must breed before for the first time.

If the move to Werribee is not imminent, then breeding should occur with these cows prior to the move. AI could be done with all three cows (or at least Dokoon and Kulab), with the bull joining them at Werribee to sire future calves. We can all agree that the exhibit at Melbourne isn’t huge, but it can surely accomodate a calf each from Dokoon and Kulab (which would be aged one to three approx by the time of the move).

 

[Yassa]

The reproductive window for female elephants often "closes" before a female reaches the age of 24. To be safe, females need to have their first calf at age 20 or earlier. And don`t let the breaks get too long. Many females will be able to reproduce after a 10 year gap between calves, but not all.

The elephant situation in Australia is such a mess, it is a disgrace. So Melbourne, Taronga and Dubbo are not cooperating with Sydney Zoo, and not with Australia Zoo either. Who just went to great lengths to import females only (just brilliant!!). And Auckland is not cooperating with any of those zoos either. And Melbourne and Taronga have already lost interest or otherwise given up on building a sustainable population a little over 10 years after their great import. Elephants have no future in Australia under such horrible management.

 

[Zoofan15]

The reproductive window for female elephants often "closes" before a female reaches the age of 24. To be safe, females need to have their first calf at age 20 or earlier. And don`t let the breaks get too long. Many females will be able to reproduce after a 10 year gap between calves, but not all.

The elephant situation in Australia is such a mess, it is a disgrace. So Melbourne, Taronga and Dubbo are not cooperating with Sydney Zoo, and not with Australia Zoo either. Who just went to great lengths to import females only (just brilliant!!). And Auckland is not cooperating with any of those zoos either. And Melbourne and Taronga have already lost interest or otherwise given up on building a sustainable population a little over 10 years after their great import. Elephants have no future in Australia under such horrible management.

There’s certainly room from improvement. The general consensus is that the breeding programme got off to a good start; but has stagnated in recent years, especially at Melbourne. I also agree with comments that the bulls should have been swapped between Perth and Melbourne long ago.

———————

This is where I think we should go from here:

Australia Zoo (0.4 Sumatran elephant):

Maintain these as a seperate population i.e. don’t hybridise with other subspecies of Asian elephant. Australia Zoo could potentially collaborate with the EEP (who have 2.4 Sumatran elephants) to import semen for AI; or even better, look at importing a bull from Indonesia. Terri Irwin clearly has a talent for these negotiations (as proven by the tiger and elephant imports); and could be working on an import as we speak. Personally, I think efforts should have been made to get the three older females pregnant prior to export to give them a head start.

Melbourne Zoo (1.5 Indian elephant):

We’ve already reached a consensus on this - import the bull from Perth Zoo and commence breeding ASAP. If there is legitimate concern for Man Jai being vulnerable to EEHV, then perform AI on Dokoon and Kulab this year; and import Putra Mas in late 2022 to breed with Num Oi in 2022; and Mali in 2024. This would stagger the births with two calves born 2022; one calf born 2024; and one calf born 2026.

Taronga Zoo (1.2 Indian elephant):

Assuming the elephants are staying: perform AI on Pak Boon when Jai Dee is five years old (2022); with the intention of her having her third calf in 2024. Tang Mo is unlikely to ever breed. Jai Dee could either be accommodated in Gung’s old exhibit once he reaches adolescence; or join a bachelor herd at Dubbo with their three young bulls.

Taronga Western Plains Zoo (4.4 Indian elephant):

Taronga Western Plains Zoo aren’t doing too bad. They should breed from Thong Dee and Porntip again either through AI (Putra Mas) or natural mating (Gung) when their respective calves are around five years of age. This would mean them giving birth to their third calves around 2023 and 2025 respectively. Female calves would join the matriarchal herd; male calves would join the bachelor herd.

Perth Zoo (1.2 Indian elephant):

We already know Perth Zoo’s plans: export the younger female upon the death of Tricia (the elderly female). The bull will also be exported in the next few years, hopefully to join the breeding programme at Zoos Victoria; as Perth Zoo phase out their elephants.

Auckland Zoo (0.1 Indian elephant; 0.1 Sri Lankan elephant):

Like the Sumatran elephants; Auckland Zoo’s Sri Lankan elephant should not hybridise with the Indian elephant subspecies if it is possible for semen to be imported from Europe from a Sri Lankan bull (Auckland Zoo was looking into this). If this is no longer an option, then maybe just import the younger female from Perth Zoo and maintain an ambassador herd of 0.3 (two of which are already post reproductive/non reproductive); with the viewing of phasing elephants out from Auckland Zoo in the long term.

———————

Like I say, these are just my thoughts and opinions. The previously low incidences of EEHV in Australasia (one fatality to date) compared to facilities in Europe mean that breeding at natural birth intervals would swamp the facilities we have, unless there are more opportunities for exports to other regions like with Ongard to Zoo Miami). Assuming these opportunities are not readily available, breeding at intervals of seven years between calves seems a necessary compromise between maintaining adequate reproductive health and being able to accomodate the calves produced long term.

I haven’t commented on Sydney Zoo, as it’s pointless without knowing their import plans for the immediate future.

 

[Zorro]

I would have to agree with you guys the elephant breeding program got off to a dream start but it does appear now to be in a real mess but why is this is the question?. One would believe that ALL parties are working together but now I feel looking at it perhaps not, IF not why not?, are different people managing the program now?, I would of thought both Taronga and Melbourne zoo would have moved their animals to their open range zoos from the start in stead of cramming them into their city zoos, now with Werribee new enclosures have to be built. So now was a waste of money in the shorter term unless they can use it for some other large animal species like Indian rhinos?. I really have lost a lot of respect for most of our major zoos(bar Adelaide), One does not have to be ten inches across the forehead to see putting these animals in Sydney and Melbourne was a mistake. Also all these phase outs over the last few years with more to come smack of mishandling. I believe many of our smaller regional zoo are doing far better and on a much smaller budget, I just hope our larger zoos can turn the tide in time!

 

[Elephantelephant]

There’s certainly room from improvement. The general consensus is that the breeding programme got off to a good start; but has stagnated in recent years, especially at Melbourne. I also agree with comments that the bulls should have been swapped between Perth and Melbourne long ago.

———————

This is where I think we should go from here:

Australia Zoo (0.4 Sumatran elephant):

Maintain these as a seperate population i.e. don’t hybridise with other subspecies of Asian elephant. Australia Zoo could potentially collaborate with the EEP (who have 2.4 Sumatran elephants) to import semen for AI; or even better, look at importing a bull from Indonesia. Terri Irwin clearly has a talent for these negotiations (as proven by the tiger and elephant imports); and could be working on an import as we speak. Personally, I think efforts should have been made to get the three older females pregnant prior to export to give them a head start.

Melbourne Zoo (1.5 Indian elephant):

We’ve already reached a consensus on this - import the bull from Perth Zoo and commence breeding ASAP. If there is legitimate concern for Man Jai being vulnerable to EEHV, then perform AI on Dokoon and Kulab this year; and import Putra Mas in late 2022 to breed with Num Oi in 2022; and Mali in 2024. This would stagger the births with two calves born 2022; one calf born 2024; and one calf born 2026.

Taronga Zoo (1.2 Indian elephant):

Assuming the elephants are staying: perform AI on Pak Boon when Jai Dee is five years old (2022); with the intention of her having her third calf in 2024. Tang Mo is unlikely to ever breed. Jai Dee could either be accommodated in Gung’s old exhibit once he reaches adolescence; or join a bachelor herd at Dubbo with their three young bulls.

Taronga Western Plains Zoo (4.4 Indian elephant):

Taronga Western Plains Zoo aren’t doing too bad. They should breed from Thong Dee and Porntip again either through AI (Putra Mas) or natural mating (Gung) when their respective calves are around five years of age. This would mean them giving birth to their third calves around 2023 and 2025 respectively. Female calves would join the matriarchal herd; male calves would join the bachelor herd.

Perth Zoo (1.2 Indian elephant):

We already know Perth Zoo’s plans: export the younger female upon the death of Tricia (the elderly female). The bull will also be exported in the next few years, hopefully to join the breeding programme at Zoos Victoria; as Perth Zoo phase out their elephants.

Auckland Zoo (0.1 Indian elephant; 0.1 Sri Lankan elephant):

Like the Sumatran elephants; Auckland Zoo’s Sri Lankan elephant should not hybridise with the Indian elephant subspecies if it is possible for semen to be imported from Europe from a Sri Lankan bull (Auckland Zoo was looking into this). If this is no longer an option, then maybe just import the younger female from Perth Zoo and maintain an ambassador herd of 0.3 (two of which are already post reproductive/non reproductive); with the viewing of phasing elephants out from Auckland Zoo in the long term.

———————

Like I say, these are just my thoughts and opinions. The previously low incidences of EEHV in Australasia (one fatality to date) compared to facilities in Europe mean that breeding at natural birth intervals would swamp the facilities we have, unless there are more opportunities for exports to other regions like with Ongard to Zoo Miami). Assuming these opportunities are not readily available, breeding at intervals of seven years between calves seems a necessary compromise between maintaining adequate reproductive health and being able to accomodate the calves produced long term.

I haven’t commented on Sydney Zoo, as it’s pointless without knowing their import plans for the immediate future.

I agree with you all. It is a pity that Taronga Zoo in Sydney did not reproduce Tang Mo. The worst is the breeding program in Melbourne. Kulab had her first calf via AI at ten years, why don't they continue with this? Dokkon had her second calf three years after her first, why they didn't continue like this?? At Num-Oi could they also make AI when she likes to care for calves. Waiting for elephants to move to Weribee is nonsense. All cows should have a calf by this time. I think it is rather a lack of interest in the reproduction of these cows.

 

[Zoofan15]

I agree with you all. It is a pity that Taronga Zoo in Sydney did not reproduce Tang Mo. The worst is the breeding program in Melbourne. Kulab had her first calf via AI at ten years, why don't they continue with this? Dokkon had her second calf three years after her first, why they didn't continue like this?? At Num-Oi could they also make AI when she likes to care for calves. Waiting for elephants to move to Weribee is nonsense. All cows should have a calf by this time. I think it is rather a lack of interest in the reproduction of these cows.

I believe the initial surge in births was due to needing to get the cows, especially those in their mid/late teens (Porntip, Pak Boon and Dokoon) breeding. The staggering of the births at Melbourne Zoo - two in 2010; two in 2013 was no doubt intentional. Dokoon was chosen to breed first; with Kulab also taking precedence over Num Oi (underage breeding is bad PR). When the next two calf slots were filled, Dokoon was chosen again due to being seven years older; and the zoo having then (in 2011) close on a decade before Kulab would need to be bred for maintenance of her reproductive health. I agree it’s surprising they haven’t done this and hope AI can be done this year.

You’re right re. Num Oi being very maternally inclined. She’s especially close to Man Jai; and likewise, Tang Mo has always had a strong affinity for the calves at Taronga. Unlike Tang Mo, who is 21 and never bred; and Dokoon and Kulab who really need to breed in the next couple of years; time is on Num Oi’s side. It was only 3.5 years ago she last gave birth; so while she would definitely benefit socially/emotionally from having another calf soon, the same urgency is not yet there with regards to her reproductive health.