Putra Mas isnt the most well socialised bull either. So a large part will be how the Cows perceive him. It'll be interesting that's for sure.
Australian Asian Elephant Population 2025
- Thread starter Zoofan15
- Start date
Putra Mas isnt the most well socialised bull either. So a large part will be how the Cows perceive him. It'll be interesting that's for sure.
As has been discussed countless times before - space is the issue here.
I agree the management is not what it use to be its quite disappointing
Space was an issue when they were taking on the Taronga girls. Even then they were still planning on a calf from Anjalee and possibly one other cow. Now they are Two elephants down with there two proven cows getting dangerously close to become non viable due to birth interval. With the only plausible excuse a lack of space in the barns.
They can't get there **** together for the new barn, but they can spend a ridiculous amount of money on a new savannah and hotel. Once again the Taronga foundation prefferences non animal aspects of the zoo over there actual animals. I read an advertisement here about them having Australia's largest Savannah for there new hotel.......Yet monarto's new area is as large as the entire zoo itself.
It is nothing but terrible management, space isn't an issue, its an excuse that is to the detriment of the breeding program. The zoo already has a savannah, there isnt any new species. What are they doing, displyaing the same species 3 times over.
Fair points - and I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just pointing out the obvious as to why Taronga isn't breeding their cows like we would hope.
It's important to note that Taronga planning to send their cows across was prior to the decision to acquire Anjalee. Once Anjalee was across at Dubbo, Taronga's cows were in limbo until Monarto popped up with the facilities to take them on. As you understand, they just don't have the space for a large matriarchal herd like Werribee.
Not only that, but within the region, there's also limited space. Say Taronga breeds all three cows, and they all have bull calves. It would be impossible to mantain all at Taronga long term, and whilst overseas exports are a possibility, we certainly won't see all three being exported.
So the obvious is to expand. Upgrade the facilities; a new barn, new paddocks. It's essential for the future of their breeding herd, and I do very much agree that I'd rather see this being prioritised instead of a new savannah and a new hotel. But then again, it's Taronga and their priorities seem twisted. Not surprised!
The original plan was for Pak Boon and Tang Mo to join Anjalee and the others at Dubbo. Had that gone ahead, the zoo would have had a matriarchal herd of six cows now. The matriarchal herd is currently housed in a three stall barn (Porntip and Kanlaya; Thong Dee; Anjalee). They could have potentially housed Pak Boon and Tang Mo in the two stall barn (built in the 1980’s) and accepted splitting the herd overnight; or they could have delayed their transfer until the matriarchal herd barn was built, which I was under the impression was the plan. Irregardless, I’m sure the new barn would have become a much greater priority.
Monarto’s plans to acquire elephants came completely out of left field. Burma was originally planned to go to Australia Zoo (and refused by Dubbo either way) and none of us would have been surprised to have seen Putra Mas transfer to Werribee Open Range Zoo. That essentially just left Permai to accomodate. Monarto’s plans first and foremost helped out Auckland and Perth; but with Permai and Burma being post-reproductive, acquiring Taronga’s cows (announced later) gives them a shot at establishing a multigenerational herd. Taronga (with no new barn at Dubbo on the horizon) no doubt jumped at the chance.
New barn or not, Dubbo never could have made use of an additional reproductive cow (Pak Boon) for the reasons you’ve listed - regional capacity, redundancy of bulls etc.
That sounds about right - so it seems like the additions of Pak Boon and Tang Mo were primarily perhaps the main driving reasons for the addition of a new barn which was discussed a few years back and has seemingly disappeared from Dubbo's immediate plans.
Nonetheless, it's intriguing to consider the hypotheticals had Monarto not popped up as a possibility. Sending Permai to join Burma at Auckland would have been a strong possibility, or vice versa. I do note Auckland's biggest reason to phase out elephants was giving Anjalee a chance to breed, and therefore not leaving Burma by herself. So I could've seen them holding the pair until they both passed.
Another interesting possibility would have been Melbourne. They had the facilities, and with only two post reproductive cows, they could have offered to hold the two cows until they eventually passed.
I was advised in 2022 that the new herd barn was at least 3-5 years away (with a similar timeframe for transferring Pak Boon and Tang Mo).
Presumably the plan was to retire Pak Boon from breeding; though I suppose it’s possible she and Anjalee would have become Dubbo’s breeding cows (with the herd barn affording them space to breed from at least two cows). Though there was enough optimism in Anjalee’s breeding chances to send her to Australia, there were no guarantees - and so Porntip (and possibly Pak Boon) would have been the back up. Thong Dee is sufficiently represented via Luk Chai.
I agree either Auckland or Perth holding Burma and Permai seems likely. Comments were made by a former employee of Auckland Zoo in the media claiming the phase out was financially driven; but like you say, the zoo underlined the importance of allowing Anjalee the opportunity to breed and there’s also the inadequacy of Auckland’s herd setting with regards to the social needs of this species. Their exhibit could accomodate three cows and historically, Auckland Zoo has only ever held a maximum of two elephants at a time - with one left alone each time the second passed; or transferred out (in the case of Kassala and Anjalee).
I completely agree Taronga are set to spend a ''massive" amount of money on a new chair lift for the zoo instead of something that is better for the animal welfare, absolutely bad management, considering the time effort and big money spent to obtain the Thai elephants only to be pushed aside for people rides!
Late Spring was announced, so I'm assuming the plan is for him to move in November.
Luke899
Well-Known Member
Yeah if you couldn’t tell by my profile picture I want baby elephants as soon as possible!
Ultimately it’ll depend on when Monarto are ready to receive him. There’s clearly optimism around this happening in spring; but from reports of those who’ve visited Monarto, there’s clearly some way to go.
It’s worth noting however that if they leave it too long (January onwards), Putra Mas will go into musth again, locking him out until May 2026. If they wanna breed from Pak Boon, they need to get him on site ASAP.
Not to mention not wanting to move him in the summer heat too!
Good point. Perth does have custom made crates which are air conditioned; but nonetheless, the transfer will be more pleasant for all involved (including the elephant) if done before the height of summer.
Fingers crossed they can get him to Monarto in the next couple of months.
The management of the Asiatic elephant ex situ conservation breeding leads a lot to be desired where space is just used as a convenient excuse from not learning from the mistakes and mishaps created on other Continents with both African and Asiatic elephants. Remember, the ARAZPA (now ZAA) had the pre planning luxury of selecting elephants from known sources in Thailand and more or less the same genetic ESU units to re-invent elephant husbandry, management and ex situ conservation breeding. I do ignore the former Perth Zoo grouping as the major part of the new immigrant elephants came from Thailand. Now, perhaps zoos were not ready for it ... but with acres of space at the open range zoos and in the city zoos space being a prime issue ... the importing zoos all went for the city zoos where ... it would have made more sense to directly dedicate space at the open range parts and have the city zoos invest in other iconic exotic and native species and reinventing the city zoos (the latter some are still not doing ... as going for the obvious marketing concepts of open Africa versus the more obvious departure and journey to more diverse and regional both Antipodes, PNG and South and East Asia ... being the closet and establish long-term partnerships locally and overseas with in situ components.
Anyhow, we are now at the stage that the Taronga herd has been partially split up and the Perth Zoo transfer of their elephant group is "progressing" at snails pace...! Further, there is no denying that the few breeding cows left do not have ages or large time frames to have more calves and at some ... only 1 cow is even a real candidate ...
Now, I have never been none too happy with the long intervals the ZAA elephant TAG management saw itself fit with preposterous and unnatural 7-8 year time frames between calves and knowing full well that cow elephants have a particular breeding cycle and that once all their ovae have been spent they will no longer be able to conceive....any calves. It seems long term sustainability has never been on the minds of PR/CEO zoo management and has taken precedent over sound species particular husbandry management.
ATM, we are in a situation that only very few cows in the program stand a real chance of reproducing into the wider future and for part reverting to mixing up different matrilines with older unrelated and sometimes maladjusted elephant cows .... It just does not make sense. The adagium learned from European and North American breeding programs would have been to break up growing different matrilines in facilities and work only with and towards mother-daughter combinations and hence / thus break up multiple matriarchal herds into their relevant parts with a potential addition of some non-reproducing elephant cows that have already been socially integrated into the mother-daughter herd prior to transfer and then may continue/accompany them to the new facility.
Now what we are doing is taking elephants from left right and center and putting them in the mix ... so to speak ... which by all modern standards is setting up for social issues in integrating non familial elephants into an established matriarchal herd and breeding lineage .... Was there no alternative to have the elderly non-reproducing elephants not already part of a socially well established and adjusted matriarchal herd be relocated to a facility that intends not to breed? And: we would still have plenty of space for bachelor herds in city environments and by the looks of it also in the open range facilities with holding multiple bulls.....
While this may look like a rant, it surely is not.... while it is based on intimate knowledge of elephant social structure, behaviour and ecology and how this would / should work under (semi-) captive conditions.
NOTA BENE: Those that do not learn from history are condemned to repeat that history - over and over again.
Well said, and while the Thai elephant import program had got off to a flying start mistakes have been made the first major mistake which I had mentioned here years before they were even imported was sending both groups to the city zoos in Sydney and Melbourne to attract the public first and foremost.
The next biggest mistake in my view is the age gaps the breedings between the Taronga/Dubbo herd, instead of spending money to add another elephant barn at Dubbo so they can continue its breeding program its spent in other areas, considering the amount of time and sheer effort not to mention the cost of importing all these elephants in the first place I believe they have dropped the ball in resent years. As for the Werribee herd this is a first class example how to do everything right a lesson for others to follow
You both raise a number of good points.
As a region, we have three matrilines:
1. Porntip (1992): Kanlaya (2018)
2. Dokkoon (1993): Mali (2010) and Aiyara (2022)
3. Num-Oi (2001): Kati (2023)
If Anjalee’s calf due next month is female, we may have a fourth:
4. Anjalee (2006): Unborn (2025)
Another ended with the death of Pak Boon’s daughter in 2018:
0. Pak Boon (1992): Tukta (2010-2018)
You’re correct that having multiple matrilines at a facility is not ideal and has led to conflicts within herds in Europe. Ultimately it’s been a catch 22. The ideal scenario would have been for a matriline to flourish at each facility; but of the seven cows imported (six of which have bred), I would only describe Dokkoon’s matriline as flourishing. One cow (Tang Mo) never bred; another (Thong Dee) produced only sons; a third (Pak Boon) lost both calves before they reached maturity; a fourth (Kulab) is a non-viable breeder after producing one son (and suffering a prolapsed uterus). Porntip and Num-Oi’s young daughters will hopefully survive to breed; but both matrilines remain precarious until this is achieved.
The 7-8 year birth intervals have been undesirable. As @Zorro notes, an expanded barn facility at Dubbo would have been invaluable in expanding the herd, which is progressing at a slow rate at present (with a possibility two viable cows have been retired from the breeding programme).
Monarto have the greatest challenge of all in integrating four cows from three herds. Ultimately options on where to send these cows were limited and it could be perceived that they acquired them on humanitarian grounds. I for one am grateful the valuable founder bull (Putra Mas) is to remain in the region. Having these older cows at a (potential) breeding facility may compound rifts in the herd; though it’s worth noting Pak Boon isn’t even pregnant yet. It could easily be 15 years plus before she has the support of adult daughters, by which time Burma and even Permai may no longer be around.
Last edited:
I believe it is common sense that a new cow elephant barn should have been a top priority, Letting two adult breeding cows "age out" (going to waste) due to lack of proper housing is just bad management, its not as if they could just import another couple of cows if/when needed which is not an option, breeding age elephant cows would be extremely hard to acquire not to mention the difficulty and expense even if they were. The new planned cable car ride for Taronga would be a massive price tag but I have little dough that the money will be provided for that, I am somewhat disappointed that after the Thai import breeding program got off to such a successful start its faltering to to lack of insight and bad planning I really hope it can recover despite having what appears to be a big own goal!
Porntip (1992) especially is an immense loss to the breeding programme. She’s a textbook mother and her daughter Kanlaya (2018) would have benefited greatly from observing her mother with a new sibling. Hopefully Kanlaya can gain this experience through observing Anjalee (2006), though her experience with calves is an unknown and limited to whatever she did or didn’t observe at the Sri Lankan facility.
Thong Dee is well represented through her sons, so not as greater loss as Porntip, but regrettable nonetheless. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, she should have gone to Monarto, where they have the space to make use of her.