Australian Elephant Debate

[MARK]

Zooworker, if you look again at what I said I stated "could be", I do know people who have worked with breeding groups of both species of elephant overseas and having the right people in a team who know about breeding, births ect would help any breeding program .

So whats your view on the high turn over of staff?

 

[tetrapod]

I think the assumtion that just because the elephant team leader came from overseas where they've bred elephants makes the experience better, I will say that management has changed since the 70's but the title of best elephant team and certainly most experienced is disputed. The fact that some of the most experienced elephant keepers on site have left the department would suggest otherwise and the extremly high staff turnover on the department would also suggest something going against this.

Australian zoos have for some reason traditionally looked outside Australia for expertise with elephants. They then fill up extra positions with local keepers. Inevitably the overseas keepers look to the next challenge or get fed up and leave after a few years. This often causes a complete meltdown of the tight-knit crew, and the zoo has to start again. It doesn't seem to occur in any other branch of zookeeping, so I suspect it comes down to the intensity of training with hands-on elephants.

Dare I suggest that Taronga's current crew have had the benefit of a modern exhibit, a whole heapload of money thrown at one species, fresh young blood and a dash of good luck when it comes to the breeding of their elephants (not to denigrate their current and future success).

 

[kiang]

Picking up on something Glyn said, i was sure i had read somewhere that the African elephants at Dubbo had bred in the past, or was it simply that they held a bull, could someone please confirm.

I am sorry to doubt you Glyn, reading some of your previous posts, you seem like a well informed and lyrical young man

 

[zooworker]

Dare I suggest that Taronga's current crew have had the benefit of a modern exhibit, a whole heapload of money thrown at one species, fresh young blood and a dash of good luck when it comes to the breeding of their elephants (not to denigrate their current and future success).

I agree with you in this case, the current team has had many things going for them including complete prioritisation in the park. And as for staff turn over i have my opinion which is shared by quite a few people and due to reasons i cannot state this online. The reason dubbo did not breed when they held a herd is probably due to the fact that the animals they first recieved had not been managed as a herd from a young age, and had various backgrounds. The management of bulls has changed alot and also the way elephants in general have been managed. The whole idea that you can just through elephants in a huge paddock and they'll be happy is wrong and doesn't work, but also the idea that without space, a well managed group is a replacement for space is also wrong, space with intense management is the answer

 

[MARK]

Picking up on something Glyn said, i was sure i had read somewhere that the African elephants at Dubbo had bred in the past, or was it simply that they held a bull, could someone please confirm.

Kiang, The African elephants never bred at Dubbo, the first group of four were imported from the UKs Longleat Safari park, they were three cows and a bull named David, some years later Dubbo imported another two Africans from the USA, of the two one was a huge bull named Congo which stared in the Wayne movie "Hatari" filmed in Africa, also another cow came with him so they did have six in total there.

 

[CGSwans]

Picking up on something Glyn said, i was sure i had read somewhere that the African elephants at Dubbo had bred in the past, or was it simply that they held a bull, could someone please confirm.

Kiang, The African elephants never bred at Dubbo, the first group of four were imported from the UKs Longleat Safari park, they were three cows and a bull named David, some years later Dubbo imported another two Africans from the USA, of the two one was a huge bull named Congo which stared in the Wayne movie "Hatari" filmed in Africa, also another cow came with him so they did have six in total there.

Am I right in thinking that Monarto Zoo has a long-term plan to import a group of African elephants?

Also - with the Elephant herpes virus that is apparently fatal to Asian elephants and common (but not deadly) in Africans - are the Dubbo elephants definitely carrying the disease?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Am I right in thinking that Monarto Zoo has a long-term plan to import a group of African elephants?

Also - with the Elephant herpes virus that is apparently fatal to Asian elephants and common (but not deadly) in Africans - are the Dubbo elephants definitely carrying the disease?

The African elephant are definitely carriers/vectors of the disease. Hence, any Asian elephants at Dubbo will become exposed to ...

 

[MARK]

@ KB, I did not make the above statement?, I thimk you find it was GCSwans

 

[kiang]

Picking up on something Glyn said, i was sure i had read somewhere that the African elephants at Dubbo had bred in the past, or was it simply that they held a bull, could someone please confirm.

Kiang, The African elephants never bred at Dubbo, the first group of four were imported from the UKs Longleat Safari park, they were three cows and a bull named David, some years later Dubbo imported another two Africans from the USA, of the two one was a huge bull named Congo which stared in the Wayne movie "Hatari" filmed in Africa, also another cow came with him so they did have six in total there.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Mark

 

[MARK]

No problem Kiang

 

[Hix]

The African elephant are definitely carriers/vectors of the disease. Hence, any Asian elephants at Dubbo will become exposed to ...

The question was "are the Dubbo elephants definitely carrying the disease?"



Hix

 

[Jarkari]

The African Elephants at Dubbo are probably the luckiest elephants (in terms of enrichment) in the whole country. They have a dedicated team of keepers looking after all 5 elephants. They have a massive exhibit plus are given access to a number of the zoos savnnah's and out back areas. At TWPZ the elephant keepers don't rotate divisions as other keepers at the zoo do. When the elephants were first at the zoo things were different so a lack of breeding is not the fault of the staff. The "talent" of the keepers is hard to judge, the elephants at Taronga are young. I would be willing to bet that if you took Taronga's ele keepers out to TWPZ it would take some alot longer for them to be able to do things with the africans that TWPZ does with theirs. Some of the video I've seen of TWPZ elephants and staff relationship is just amazing. The relationships are incredibly strong. The last advertised elephant keeper position publicly advertised for TWPZ was when Arna and Gigi arrived to help cope with the extra workload.

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

When heman was at Dubbo (before his death) did he have his own bull yard or did he hang out with Burma?

 

[Jarkari]

Heman had his own enclosure. There are two exhibits for the Asians and a reasonable off display area.

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

right, thanks. Too bad I wasn't quite old enough to fully research and understand He-man when he was alive. Does anyone know how tall he was and how much he weighed?

3m? 5 tonnes?

 

[Coquinguy]

He-man was a massive bull. Bong-Su is impressive, but He-Man was something else. he was huge, or maybe it just seemed that way when he was at taronga juxtaposed against such a small, sterile exhibit.
now, the reason why i brought up Dubbo was to illustrate the fact that with elephants, of either species, just chucking together a few cows and a bull into a huge paddock doesnt translate into breeding. a myriad of other factors could have impacted on the viability of the program....im unaware of any reproductive assesments ever being carried out on the Africans but i do know this...
that as far back as the early 1990s WPZ was intent on breeding this species, upgrading the enclosure to allow the bull and cows to be seperated and therefore intorduced for breeding.
of course, no calf ever arrived. obviously as we go on we learn more and more about the importance of socialisation in elephants...WPZ's African Elephants probably never had the experiences of herd living. on the other hand the Thai elephants no doubt came from very fractured backgrounds too; and yet they have formed a cohesive family unit which has no doubt been strengthened by the recent birth.
a few other points about WPZ and in no way am I running down the staff there at all. but when Cheri died there was an absolute **** fight about the state of the elephant barn there. she died at 35 from 'age related illnesses'. even in the late 1990s the African elephants were being treated for athritis. Heman and Congo both dropped dead suddenly.
what i am trying to do is raise the bar of this argument. open-range zoos are not the only answer for elephant management in this country. we also need to be rational about the cost of this program. we can debate how much it contributes to conservation in situ (im all for zoo elephants though the linkages between zoos and the wild could always be improved) BUT when it comes to ex-situ costs I just dont see how forum members can possibly think that a government funded institution would ever base this program at dubbo purely for financial reasons. Taronga, the Federal Minister for the Environment and subsequent reports have concluded that the city zoo would and continues toe effectively met the welfare standards of these animals. why on earth people think that when an expensive program like this one is paying for itself in sydney that the govt. and taronga management would uproot and send it to dubbo which is in bad trouble monetarily kind of makes me think they have been living in NSW too long and are used to stupid financial situations.
this is never going to happen. and ill eat my trunk if it does in the next decade.

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

wow!!! I wish I had seen He-man in person. I'm looking for pictures on him in the gallery but not much luck, can anyone give my quick urls of pics of He-man.

 

[Hix]

Have just uploaded one of the ol' grumblebum. Appears to be my only pic of him.

http://www.zoochat.com/34/asian-elephants-96749/



Hix

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

Neat thanks hix.

I'm pretty sure that's Ranee, The Burma from what I've seen has a much thicker trunk.

 

[Animal Rights]

I am no layman either but I fail to see how elephants in zoos can contribute to conservation in a significant way. I suppose the zoo world does not romanticise or anthropomorphise animals in any way? You seem to be denying the existence of a problem in this entire elephant captivity issue judging by the way in which you articulate yourself, as you seem to be doing for any question regarding the ethics of the zoo concept. I would request you to develop a bit more tolerance before using terms like fanatical and anthropomorphical. Your defence of anything to do with promoting zoos seems fanatical to me and I am just as keen on the issue as you are. The Taronga Elephants had absolutely nothing to do with conservation, and the critics knew about elephants as much as you do. I just wonder if you have ever engaged the elephant captivity critics before launching attacks on them? You are just the kind of person I would like to meet in a public conference on wildlife or zoos, where you will speak and I will speak on the zoo issue and we will see who has more logic and who has more prejudice.

Hi fellow esteemed forumsters,

Well, here it is then ... my kick-off ... for the ethic and philosophy debate surrounding the entire Australian elephant breeding programme. Whereas this discussion started more or less around Taronga Zoo elephant exhibit, I assume that it has a much wider scope in that it concerns the entire Australian elephant breeding programme as a going concern.

As for Taronga Zoo - personally - I do find that some of the criticism levelled at the zoo, its exhibit and the long-term prospects remains unjustified and based more on personal opinion and outlook on the world than any (non-)professional expertise or in-depth knowledge vis a vis the Taronga elephant exhibit, its keeper care and animal management.

I am no lay-person and I have personally followed the fiery debate in Australia vis a vis the Thailand elephant import with much interest and sometimes outright surprise. That debate had been heavily politicised, it being an understatement of the vehemence and sometimes fanatical criticism levelled at all zoos involved in the elephant import, not just the Taronga Zoo.

I found quite a few of the concerns that had been brought up in the past objecting to any elephant imports into Australia/New Zealand had more to do with a general anthropomorphised and romanticised idealism vis a vis the Asiatic elephant as a species (more worthy than others). It seems to me, those seem notions still exist today among some of our zoo forumsters. I feel unjustiably so, but hell we may and can disagree (and most probably we will never agree, but that is just the human condition ).

I am afraid the romantic notion of wild elephants in the wild expanses of their natural habitat is a thing of the past. Eco-tourism in itself is in no way effective to combat the continuous decline in natural elephant populations (if not a whole set of criteria are met at the local level to promote in situ conservation and local participation and ownership) nor is the frequently suggested native sanctuary mode any conservation added benefit or generates funding for in situ conservation.

I can and will elaborate later, but would first invite others to do their bit.
You are all welcome to it here!

Kindest regards,

K.B.