Best UK Penguin enclosure

[amur leopard]

"Mock sandy beaches and rocky areas add great visual touches, but also provide the birds with different textures that are perfect for their feet."

I can only tell you what is written in a scientific book. I don't want to contest what is written on Edinburgh's website but in this instance I trust a book based on reliable studies more than the zoo's website:

'More recently, a study of bumblefoot in African penguins Sphensicus demersus found that incidence was significantly higher in male penguins and those which were heavier; (Erlacher-Ried et al. 2012). Furthermore, low levels of swimming and smooth concrete flooring substrate were also associated with higher incidence of bumblefoot.'

The Edinburgh enclosure land area is predominantly smooth concrete. However, to your point:

'Therefore, contrary to previous advice to provide smooth flooring to penguins, these data led the authors to recommend the replacement of smooth surfaces with something which would provide variable pressure and texture to the penguin's foot'.

Of course, Edinburgh zoo's website are correct - the penguins need varied texture. However, I would not use this as an argument as to why the Edinburgh enclosure is better given that I would argue London's exhibit is quite superior in this regard. Furthermore, many of the rocks in Edinburgh's exhibit seem quite unattainable for a small penguin, and hence even if we were to include them in the reckoning, they should be almost entirely discounted for use by penguins other than the Kings.

I am scared to see what TLD has in store for me for daring to suggest London's exhibit is even near comparable to Edinburgh's

 

[TeaLovingDave]

but I think London has the edge.

Let's break down your claims shall we?

London has an exhibit of comparable size (2,086 m2)

You have significantly over-estimated the size of the London exhibit; my calculations make it closer to 1,710 m² - which would make the Edinburgh exhibit 42% larger. Even by your figures, the Edinburgh exhibit is about 17% larger, which is a fair whack all things considered.

Either way, the exhibits are not of comparable size.

I think another thing that has to be pointed out is that Edinburgh's exhibit is built from a mildly abrasive material for the areas that are on land. This can lead to Bumblefoot, 'an infection associated with abrasive surfaces that cause cuts in the feet which then become infected'

Which is precisely why Edinburgh's exhibit is specifically designed to provide varying textures and substrates to avoid this - as is visible from the photographs I posted, in fact!

The Edinburgh exhibit holds multiple species, one of which is considerably larger than the rest. This means that they need more space. Pound for pound, London gives their penguins more space due to the similar areas and the larger species in Edinburgh despite the large group in London.

Which would be a fine point.... were it not for the fact it is based on inaccurate claims about comparative exhibit sizes as already noted also, it is worth noting that the King Penguins are very much in the minority in terms of population.

I am sort of playing Devil's advocate here because I am not really giving Edinburgh much credit in this post even though I think a lot is due, and that it is certainly in the top two in the UK. I just wanted to point out the surface issue and the area comparison

And as these two points can be rebutted......

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Haha.Yes I have been.I have the same problem with it that I have with Edinburgh.Not enough PLANTS!I know it is ridiculous but they add so much privacy and atmosphere.

Ah yes, the famous thick vegetation of Antarctica and South Georgia which the penguins living there need so badly

I can only tell you what is written in a scientific book. I don't want to contest what is written on Edinburgh's website but in this instance I trust a book based on reliable studies more than the zoo's website:

'More recently, a study of bumblefoot in African penguins Sphensicus demersus found that incidence was significantly higher in male penguins and those which were heavier; (Erlacher-Ried et al. 2012). Furthermore, low levels of swimming and smooth concrete flooring substrate were also associated with higher incidence of bumblefoot.'

Unless the book in question was citing Edinburgh - which it certainly was not, given the species you mention is incorrect - it has no bearing on the quality of Edinburgh's exhibit also, as regards the mention of "low levels of swimming" I refer you once again to the size and depth of the Edinburgh pool, and the fact the inhabitants not only swim a vast amount but display natural behaviour such as porpoising.

The Edinburgh enclosure land area is predominantly smooth concrete.

It isn't, actually - not only are there significant sandy areas, but the concrete areas are very deliberately not smooth, but rough, craggy and textured.

 

[amur leopard]

Let's break down your claims shall we?



You have significantly over-estimated the size of the London exhibit; my calculations make it closer to 1,710 m² - which would make the Edinburgh exhibit 42% larger. Even by your figures, the Edinburgh exhibit is about 17% larger, which is a fair whack all things considered.

Either way, the exhibits are not of comparable size.



Which is precisely why Edinburgh's exhibit is specifically designed to provide varying textures and substrates to avoid this - as is visible from the photographs I posted, in fact!



Which would be a fine point.... were it not for the fact it is based on inaccurate claims about comparative exhibit sizes as already noted also, it is worth noting that the King Penguins are very much in the minority in terms of population.



And as these two points can be rebutted......

If the exhibit is, as I claim, 2086 m2 in size (including viewing areas, which you yourself did) then they are certainly comparable. Here are my measurements.



I even think I have been a bit conservative, cutting off a small area at the top of the exhibit, but there you are.

I also mentioned theming and educational material, is there anything in Edinburgh to rival London's? And as for Bumblefoot, I don't see which areas differ from smoothed out concrete other than the nearly omni-inaccessible rocks and the nests?

 

[The_melford_manatee]

Well I didn't bother looking where they came from, as I assumed they probably hadn't seen it if they think Marwell is better!

My opinions are always weird.

 

[The_melford_manatee]

Well I didn't bother looking where they came from, as I assumed they probably hadn't seen it if they think Marwell is better!

My opinions are always weird.

 

[TZDugong]

If the exhibit is, as I claim, 2086 m2 in size (including viewing areas, which you yourself did) then they are certainly comparable. Here are my measurements.

I even think I have been a bit conservative, cutting off a small area at the top of the exhibit, but there you are.

Some of the area you've used to show the exhibit size definitely looks like the Penguins can't use it, particularly the seating area near the bottom of the exhibit.

 

[amur leopard]

Some of the area you've used to show the exhibit size definitely looks like the Penguins can't use it, particularly the seating area near the bottom of the exhibit.

I said in my post I included viewing areas, just like TLD did

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Just one more rebuttal, with the assistance of Google Street View:

London has an exhibit of comparable size (2,086 m2) which has a sizeable underwater viewing area,

This is *not* sizeable.



This (at Edinburgh) is sizeable. The two underwater viewing areas are not comparable in any way, shape or form.

 

[The_melford_manatee]

Ah yes, the famous thick vegetation of Antarctica and South Georgia which the penguins living there need so badly .

Yes I am being ridiculous, but it adds so much to the exhibit.It allows zoos to design the enclosure in such a way that the keepers can easily run health check ups on the Penguins while they are in their dens, but it also gives them privacy.

Some penguins do live in areas with plants such as the Africans.South Georgia also has some plants, so if zoos chose their plant variety wisely it doubles the quality of the exhibit.

I suppose part of me is just thinking that a zoo should be able to claim more than just ‘varying surfaces’,’the deepest pool’ and ‘the largest area’.The latter claim can even be debated about.

 

[TZDugong]

I said in my post I included viewing areas, just like TLD did

Ah okay, I should've read through the whole thread before commenting!

As for my personal thoughts (based entirely on photos as I've never been to the UK) on the best Penguin exhibit, Edinburgh's looks really large but also somewhat ugly, London and Marwell also have nice exhibits but I think I'm voting for Living Coasts. Although the photo of the exhibit on this thread clearly doesn't show the whole enclosure, it looks like a really nice exhibit.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Some of the area you've used to show the exhibit size definitely looks like the Penguins can't use it, particularly the seating area near the bottom of the exhibit.

I said in my post I included viewing areas, just like TLD did

He has also apparently included keeper-only areas and pump buildings, which I did not in my image

I also mentioned theming and educational material, is there anything in Edinburgh to rival London's?

Again, this will have to be something I go rooting through my own archives for, as the gallery is a bit sparse for this, but there is indeed plenty of educational signage and material; the following two images give a taster:

Part of a series of informational panels discussing the century of penguin husbandry at the zoo:

A row of life-size images of the penguins of the world, showing relative sizes to one another:

and ‘the largest area’.The latter claim can even be debated about.

The physical size of objects and locations tends to be an objective fact

Some penguins do live in areas with plants such as the Africans.South Georgia also has some plants, so if zoos chose their plant variety wisely it doubles the quality of the exhibit.

But - and this is the key point - the penguins on South Georgia do not nest in those areas which are thickly vegetated as for your point about "some penguins do live in areas with plants such as the Africans"..... some big cats live in the Himalayas, but if somewhere had a Jaguar exhibit which comprised a load of rock faces and boulders and no vegetation people would rightly complain!

 

[The_melford_manatee]

Ah okay, I should've read through the whole thread before commenting!

As for my personal thoughts (based entirely on photos as I've never been to the UK) on the best Penguin exhibit, Edinburgh's looks really large but also somewhat ugly, London and Marwell also have nice exhibits but I think I'm voting for Living Coasts. Although the photo of the exhibit on this thread clearly doesn't show the whole enclosure, it looks like a really nice exhibit.

That is exactly what I mean.Edinburgh is ugly compared to the attractive areas at London and Marwell.I have only seen Living Coasts from a photos and outside the area, and I am not sure what I saw then was for penguins.

He has also apparently included keeper-only areas and pump buildings, which I did not in my image



Again, this will have to be something I go rooting through my own archives for, as the gallery is a bit sparse for this, but there is indeed plenty of educational signage and material; the following two images give a taster:

Part of a series of informational panels discussing the century of penguin husbandry at the zoo:

A row of life-size images of the penguins of the world, showing relative sizes to one another:

The physical size of objects and locations tends to be an objective fact



But - and this is the key point - the penguins on South Georgia do not nest in those areas which are thickly vegetated as for your point about "some penguins do live in areas with plants such as the Africans"..... some big cats live in the Himalayas, but if somewhere had a Jaguar exhibit which comprised a load of rock faces and boulders and no vegetation people would rightly complain!

London and Marwell are full of educational signs too.
Your points are all correct, so the nesting box part is not vital but having plants nearby in an exhibit for Africans and maybe a few other Northern Species adds to the zoo’s charm.

 

[The_melford_manatee]

Maybe I will change the Top 3 I sent earlier.I switch London and Whipsnade(Northern Rockhopper) around,though Marwell is staying top.

 

[amur leopard]

This is *not* sizeable.

Yes, but you've used an image of the smaller viewing area. That plus this:


Is what London has to offer. Which, in total, is actually larger than Edinburgh's.

Just wondering, because of that post, have you actually been to London's new Penguin exhibit?
And where did I include pumping areas? I have now realised I missed out a good portion of visitor viewing areas actually, so if anything my measurements are conservative.

EDIT: Oh and this small circular viewing for the kids:

 

[amur leopard]

And just to further prove that London's penguins are much less at risk from Bumblefoot:


Lots of rocks, pebbles, wood, boulders, gravel, and sand. Can't get much better than that if you want to avoid Bumblefoot.

 

[The_melford_manatee]

Yes, but you've used an image of the smaller viewing area. That plus this:

View attachment 440299
Is what London has to offer. Which, in total, is actually larger than Edinburgh's.

Just wondering, because of that post, have you actually been to London's new Penguin exhibit?
And where did I include pumping areas? I have now realised I missed out a good portion of visitor viewing areas actually, so if anything my measurements are conservative.

EDIT: Oh and this small circular viewing for the kids:

View attachment 440300

By new exhibit do you mean the new yard for the chicks?London is certainly larger than Edinburgh’s, provides more space for individual penguins and,in my strange opinion, better underwater viewing.

 

[The_melford_manatee]

And just to further prove that London's penguins are much less at risk from Bumblefoot:

View attachment 440302
Lots of rocks, pebbles, wood, boulders, gravel, and sand. Can't get much better than that if you want to avoid Bumblefoot.

I do believe Marwell does a better job at that though.

 

[The_melford_manatee]

Also,just wondering,when does the vote poll close?

 

[amur leopard]

By new exhibit do you mean the new yard for the chicks?London is certainly larger than Edinburgh’s, provides more space for individual penguins and,in my strange opinion, better underwater viewing.

No, I meant the whole Penguin Beach.

I do believe Marwell does a better job at that though.

Fair point, they are quite close in this respect, but I meant within the bounds of a tie with Edinburgh.

Also,just wondering,when does the vote poll close?

22 May, 10:15 am