Big Cats

[Cody Raney]

I know it is illegal to import and keep Big Cats as pets or in private zoos, but can zoos that are privately owned but open to the public, like Wildlife Safari in Winston Oregon for example, import purebred Big Cats for breeding programs? As far I know, most Tigers and Leopards stateside are basically mutts and there are no pureblooded Asiatic Lions.

 

[StoppableSan]

I know it is illegal to import and keep Big Cats as pets or in private zoos, but can zoos that are privately owned but open to the public, like Wildlife Safari in Winston Oregon for example, import purebred Big Cats for breeding programs? As far I know, most Tigers and Leopards stateside are basically mutts and there are no pureblooded Asiatic Lions.

Well...

The Amur, Malayan and Sumatran tiger populations in US zoos are pure, as are Amur leopards. Zoomix tigers are usually relegated to ZAA/other non-AZA facilities (though there are Amur tiger populations within ZAA/other non-AZA facilities), and Amur leopards getting all the holders they'd need for a genetically viable population is the way to go, though *a* tropical leopard species would be nice for Southern US zoos. (Sri Lankan leopards would be amazing IMO)

Asiatic lions haven't been a priority for a while, though I agree there actually is value in the EEP collaborating with AZA zoos to expand their Asiatic lion breeding programs.

To answer your question fully, it probably isn't worth the effort to do so, and AZA facilities are better off working with EAZA or other internationally accredited facilities on endangered big cat programs. Topeka Zoo and Oklahoma City Zoo each sent Sumatran tigers to Auckland Zoo, and I believe Point Defiance Zoo imported a Sumatran tiger from Taronga Zoo that stopped over in Memphis, though I could be wrong on that.

 

[Cody Raney]

Well...

The Amur, Malayan and Sumatran tiger populations in US zoos are pure, as are Amur leopards. Zoomix tigers are usually relegated to ZAA/other non-AZA facilities (though there are Amur tiger populations within ZAA/other non-AZA facilities), and Amur leopards getting all the holders they'd need for a genetically viable population is the way to go, though *a* tropical leopard species would be nice for Southern US zoos. (Sri Lankan leopards would be amazing IMO)

Asiatic lions haven't been a priority for a while, though I agree there actually is value in the EEP collaborating with AZA zoos to expand their Asiatic lion breeding programs.

To answer your question fully, it probably isn't worth the effort to do so, and AZA facilities are better off working with EAZA or other internationally accredited facilities on endangered big cat programs. Topeka Zoo and Oklahoma City Zoo each sent Sumatran tigers to Auckland Zoo, and I believe Point Defiance Zoo imported a Sumatran tiger from Taronga Zoo that stopped over in Memphis, though I could be wrong on that.

The Nandankanan Zoological Park in India is a member of the World Association of Zoos and Aquariums, so in theory one could acquire Bengal Tigers and Asiatic Lions from their collection?

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

The Nandankanan Zoological Park in India is a member of the World Association of Zoos and Aquariums, so in theory one could acquire Bengal Tigers and Asiatic Lions from their collection?

What would the point of that even be? The AZA already has Amur, Malayan and Sumatran tigers and African lions.

 

[Cody Raney]

What would the point of that even be? The AZA already has Amur, Malayan and Sumatran tigers and African lions.

With the Asiatic Lions it would be to start a breeding program, as of this year there are only 895 Asiatic Lions, the only Asiatic Lions outside of India are in EAZA facilities. The Nandankanan Zoological Park is also home to pseudo melanistic Bengal Tigers, descended from Tigers from Simlipal National Park, the mutation is due to ongoing genetic isolation and the theory would be to insert some genetic diversity into the blood lines to avoid the genetic defects that result from such genetic isolation. Look how inbred White Tigers became and the sever genetic problems that resulted, crossed eyes, shortened tendons of the forelegs, club foot, kidney problems, arched backbone, and twisted neck. The New Delhi Zoo had to euthanize White Tiger cubs born with clubbed feet and arched backs.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

With the Asiatic Lions it would be to start a breeding program, as of this year there are only 895 Asiatic Lions, the only Asiatic Lions outside of India are in EAZA facilities.

And again, what would the point of the AZA taking up Asiatic lions be? The EAZA clearly has the captive population covered.

You are aware that the AZA and the EAZA deliberately differentiate their species programs, right? It's commonplace for there to be agreements in place for the AZA to focus on one species or subspecies and for the EAZA to focus on another.

With there only being so many spare spaces in zoos worldwide, such agreements help prevent unneeded redundancy. Allowing more species or subspecies to be sustained in captivity.

The Nandankanan Zoological Park is also home to pseudo melanistic Bengal Tigers, descended from Tigers from Simlipal National Park, the mutation is due to ongoing genetic isolation and the theory would be to insert some genetic diversity into the blood lines to avoid the genetic defects that result from such genetic isolation.

You don't know about the AZA's policy on not deliberately breeding color mutations, do you? Why should they cancel that (Very popular PR-wise!) policy just to bring in yet another tiger subspecies that they'll have to somehow find space for?

And that's not including the fact that Bengal Tigers (Pseudo melanistic or otherwise) already have a sustainable captive population in their native India.

Look how inbred White Tigers became and the sever genetic problems that resulted, crossed eyes, shortened tendons of the forelegs, club foot, kidney problems, arched backbone, and twisted neck. The New Delhi Zoo had to euthanize White Tiger cubs born with clubbed feet and arched backs.

Captive White Tigers became inbred because of human greed. Just how well read up on are you with regards to their history?

 

[Cody Raney]

And again, what would the point of the AZA taking up Asiatic lions be? The EAZA clearly has the captive population covered.

You are aware that the AZA and the EAZA deliberately differentiate their species programs, right? It's commonplace for there to be agreements in place for the AZA to focus on one species or subspecies and for the EAZA to focus on another.

With there only being so many spare spaces in zoos worldwide, such agreements help prevent unneeded redundancy. Allowing more species or subspecies to be sustained in captivity.



You don't know about the AZA's policy on not deliberately breeding color mutations, do you? Why should they cancel that (Very popular PR-wise!) policy just to bring in yet another tiger subspecies that they'll have to somehow find space for?

And that's not including the fact that Bengal Tigers (Pseudo melanistic or otherwise) already have a sustainable captive population in their native India.



Captive White Tigers became inbred because of human greed. Just how well read up on are you with regards to their history?

In regard to the Lions, with the number of Asiatic Lions being as low as it is every little bit would help. With the Tigers, I know how unscrupulous people can be when it comes to breeding for certain color morphs. The Tiger population in Simlipal National Park is at risk of becoming as inbred as the captive Takin you mentioned on another thread. 37% of Tigers in the park have the "Black Tiger" feature, the degree of relatedness between Tigers in the park is increasing. Having a "Black Tiger" would be a visible education the very real dangers of habitat fragmentation and genetic isolation. I'm well aware of the AZA's policy on color mutations, Cheetahs in the wild already have low genetic diversity due to two population bottlenecks from 100,000 years and 12,000 years ago, and this is further compounded by people attempting to breed for the King Cheetah mutation.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

In regard to the Lions, with the number of Asiatic Lions being as low as it is every little bit would help

But why do they need to come to North America when the captive populations in India and Europe are already sustainable and the wild population in the Gir Forest in thriving and actively expanding its territory?

With the Tigers, I know how unscrupulous people can be when it comes to breeding for certain color morphs.

That's good to hear. But that does beg the question why you're so interested in preserving these derivative colorings in the first place then.

The Tiger population in Simlipal National Park is at risk of becoming as inbred as the captive Takin you mentioned on another thread.

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that I read somewhere that the captive Sichuan Takin population descends from a single breeding trio...

So, if the pseudo-melanistic Bengal Tigers of Simlipal National Park have a founding population greater than that, then they're already in a better position genetically than the poor Sichuan Takins are. Lol

37% of Tigers in the park have the "Black Tiger" feature, the degree of relatedness between Tigers in the park is increasing.

That sounds more like a problem for the park authorities themselves to solve, rather than a random American with an interest.

Having a "Black Tiger" would be a visible education the very real dangers of habitat fragmentation and genetic isolation.

Or educational signage with photos of the pseudo-melanistic Tigers (And the other known alternate patterns for the Bengal: White, Golden Tabby, and Stripeless as well) could work just as well.

I'm well aware of the AZA's policy on color mutations, Cheetahs in the wild already have low genetic diversity due to two population bottlenecks from 100,000 years and 12,000 years ago, and this is further compounded by people attempting to breed for the King Cheetah mutation.

If you already know their policy, why are you suggesting that they bring animals with a derivative coloring to North America in order to start a breeding program, then? You know that they won't do it, so what exactly is the point of speculating that they will?

The AZA doesn't even breed King Cheetahs! None of the current individuals in North America live in AZA-accredited zoos.

 

[Cody Raney]

The King Cheetah was just an example of the need for the AZA's policy. It's the same with White Lions, Black Panthers, and all the Tiger color mutations. There are facilities outside the United States that do breed for such color morphs. And yes, maybe I am overthinking it.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

New The King Cheetah was just an example of the need for the AZA's policy.

It might've been better had you brought that beforehand, I was quite confused about what relevance that they had to the thread.

Black Panthers

Come now, you're a member of a forum for zoo enthusiasts, you should know better than to bring up a nonexistent "species".

There are facilities outside the United States that do breed for such color morphs.

Oh no, there's still plenty of facilities in the US who breed big cat color morphs. They just aren't AZA-accredited.

And yes, maybe I am overthinking it.

I sense that you do that a lot. I think that you've gotten way ahead of yourself with regards to this safari park.

 

[Cody Raney]

A Black

It might've been better had you brought that beforehand, I was quite confused about what relevance that they had to the thread.



Come now, you're a member of a forum for zoo enthusiasts, you should know better than to bring up a nonexistent "species".



Oh no, there's still plenty of facilities in the US who breed big cat color morphs. They just aren't AZA-accredited.



I sense that you do that a lot. I think that you've gotten way ahead of yourself with regards to this safari park.

A Black Panther is what you call a melanistic Leopard or Jaguar, as any zoo enthusiast would know and is a reference to the color morph not an individual species, as any zoo enthusiast would know. And yes, I know there are many facilities in the United States that are not accredited, ergo Tiger King. My reference was to the facilities that deal with the illegal side of animal husbandry, breeding protected and endangered species for the pet trade because an animal looks a certain because of a flipped switch in the genetic code or the black market for animal parts.

 

[EliasNys]

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that I read somewhere that the captive Sichuan Takin population descends from a single breeding trio.

Nope, I think what you are referring to is the Shensi ( golden) takin population in Europe, which stems from 1.1 individuals, imported by Liberec 20 years ago.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Black Panther is what you call a melanistic Leopard or Jaguar

No, it's not. It's a term only an ignorant layperson would use because it's confusing. If you're speaking in reference to a melanistic Leopard or Jaguar, then you should call it a melanistic Leopard or Jaguar. It's not difficult to use concise language.

And yes, I know there are many facilities in the United States that are not accredited, ergo Tiger King.

You could at least try to not go for the obvious example, you know. Quite a few notorious places are accredited... just not by the AZA. The ZAA isn't as picky as it should be, unfortunately.

My reference was to the facilities that deal with the illegal side of animal husbandry, breeding protected and endangered species for the pet trade because an animal looks a certain because of a flipped switch in the genetic code or the black market for animal parts.

You lost me here. What in the world are you even talking about? It's not illegal for private facilities to produce color morph animals, and a number of endangered or otherwise protected species can be bought and sold quite freely.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Nope, I think what you are referring to is the Shensi ( golden) takin population in Europe, which stems from 1.1 individuals, imported by Liberec 20 years ago.

You're probably right. I knew it was either the Sichuan or the Golden that was severely inbred, I just wasn't 100% sure which. Evidently, I guessed wrong.

Thanks for the correction! What's the founder base for the Sichuan Takin then? If you happen to know.

 

[Cody Raney]

No, it's not. It's a term only an ignorant layperson would use because it's confusing. If you're speaking in reference to a melanistic Leopard or Jaguar, then you should call it a melanistic Leopard or Jaguar. It's not difficult to use concise language.



You could at least try to not go for the obvious example, you know. Quite a few notorious places are accredited... just not by the AZA. The ZAA isn't as picky as it should be, unfortunately.



You lost me here. What in the world are you even talking about? It's not illegal for private facilities to produce color morph animals, and a number of endangered or otherwise protected species can be bought and sold quite freely.

1. When referencing the color morphs of Leopards and Jaguars as a group you say Black Panther, not Black Leopard and Black Jaguar. If you're talking about Leopards, you say Black Leopard, if you're talking about Jaguars, you say Black Jaguar.
2. Yes, Tiger Kings is an obvious example and one everyone will know and understand.
3.The illegality or that least the immorality is not only in the breeding itself but in the conditions in which they live. Using White Tigers as an example, most of the time when White Tigers bred to produce more White Tigers it was inbreeding. I am not talking about places like White Oak Conservation; I am taking about places that function like puppy mills. If it isn't illegal, it should be.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

When referencing the color morphs of Leopards and Jaguars as a group you say Black Panther, not Black Leopard and Black Jaguar. If you're talking about Leopards, you say Black Leopard, if you're talking about Jaguars, you say Black Jaguar.

I have literally never heard of that "rule" in my entire life.

Yes, Tiger Kings is an obvious example and one everyone will know and understand.

The point that I was making is that you don't need to go for the most obvious answer possible on a forum full of people who know what they're talking about.

The illegality or that least the immorality is not only in the breeding itself but in the conditions in which they live. Using White Tigers as an example, most of the time when White Tigers bred to produce more White Tigers it was inbreeding. I am not talking about places like White Oak Conservation; I am taking about places that function like puppy mills. If it isn't illegal, it should be.

I'm more concerned that you don't know what's illegal and what's not and you're planning on opening a safari park.

 

[Chlidonias]

No, it's not. It's a term only an ignorant layperson would use because it's confusing. If you're speaking in reference to a melanistic Leopard or Jaguar, then you should call it a melanistic Leopard or Jaguar. It's not difficult to use concise language.

I use the term black panther all the time for melanistic leopards...

It's just dependent on the person, it has nothing to do with being an "ignorant layperson". Black panther has always been the term used for black leopards, because a panther is a leopard. I had never heard it used for black jaguars until seeing that on Zoochat - I think it might be mostly an American thing, perhaps because pumas are also colloquially called "panthers" over there.

 

[Chlidonias]

The Nandankanan Zoological Park in India is a member of the World Association of Zoos and Aquariums, so in theory one could acquire Bengal Tigers and Asiatic Lions from their collection?

Export of Indian fauna is not regulated by WAZA.

 

[Cody Raney]

I have literally never heard of that "rule" in my entire life.



The point that I was making is that you don't need to go for the most obvious answer possible on a forum full of people who know what they're talking about.



I'm more concerned that you don't know what's illegal and what's not and you're planning on opening a safari park.

It's not a rule it's just how normal people talk. Does the answer I gave matter when everyone got the point? And yes, I do plan on opening a safari park and I have said before on other threads that I am learning as much as I can before I do. Did Julia Child know everything about cooking before she got started, did Gordon Ramsay? No, they studied and learned everything they possibly could.

 

[Cody Raney]

I use the term black panther all the time for melanistic leopards...

It's just dependent on the person, it has nothing to do with being an "ignorant layperson". Black panther has always been the term used for black leopards, because a panther is a leopard. I had never heard it used for black jaguars until seeing that on Zoochat - I think it might be mostly an American thing, perhaps because pumas are also colloquially called "panthers" over there.

We do. Over here its cougar, mountain lion, catamount, puma, or panther depending on who you talk to and where you are. Panther is a Florida thing. Cougar is usually the Rocky Mountains. Mountain Lion is Appalachia. Personally, I've never heard catamount.