Bib Fortuna
Well-Known Member
The Truth about Blackfish:
http://da15bdaf715461308003-0c725c9...ist-of-inaccuracies-and-misleading-points.pdf
http://da15bdaf715461308003-0c725c9...ist-of-inaccuracies-and-misleading-points.pdf
SeaWorld San Diego Bill introduced to ban captive orcas in California
- Thread starter DavidBrown
- Start date
Wow,thanks for sharing. I wish there was a way for this to become common knowledge. I see way too many people that consider Blackfish as a legitimate source.
wensleydale
Well-Known Member
This is brilliant. It ought to be spread around more! Thank you. There's a lot of irony in there too that I would be tempted to list but makes me worry I would go on forever.
Bib Fortuna
Well-Known Member
The main Problem with the People today is-most People belive everything they see in a"documentary",Video or whats written in books or newspapers.
I've never seen"Blackfish",a and I will never do-the only reason for the existence of"Blackfish"is to make money.I've visited many dolphinariums and several times Seaworld and other holders of Orcas-so I build my opinion of what I've seen with my own eyes.By the way-I know much more pet animals( Dogs,cats, single parrots in tiny Cages etc...) living in much,much better conditions than the Orcas at Seaworld-but who cares about that ?
I've never seen"Blackfish",a and I will never do-the only reason for the existence of"Blackfish"is to make money.I've visited many dolphinariums and several times Seaworld and other holders of Orcas-so I build my opinion of what I've seen with my own eyes.By the way-I know much more pet animals( Dogs,cats, single parrots in tiny Cages etc...) living in much,much better conditions than the Orcas at Seaworld-but who cares about that ?
Personally I am against keeping orcas or any other cetaceans in captivity. There are in my opinion a number of species of animal that should never be kept in captivity.
things such as cetaceans and whale sharks where it is impossible to maintain the animals, provide adequate space or adequate mental stimulation
things such as cetaceans and whale sharks where it is impossible to maintain the animals, provide adequate space or adequate mental stimulation
wensleydale
Well-Known Member
Cetacean's can be kept successfully in captivity, at least bottlenose dolphins can. With Orca's it is kind of a crapshoot because we haven't really been keeping them long enough to really know.
I think we will eventually learn how to properly keep orcas,but it's most likely going to be a lengthy process. Seeing how far we've come with terrestrial mammal exhibits in the last few decades,I have no doubt we'll see much improvement in marine mammal exhibits in years to come.
I'm a bit cynical when it comes to orcas; there hasn't been much progress in the past several years. I was hoping that with the Blackfish backlash, more places would try to improve conditions as a way of fighting back. SeaWorld is a for-profit business so I do expect more out of them, and lack of improvements is really disappointing. Granted, I don't think orcas should be in captivity at all, since I don't think it would ever be possible to create captive conditions that could meet all of their needs. But I'd still totally be down for some improvements; I'm being realistic here, I know orcas won't be phased out of captivity any time soon.
Bib Fortuna
Well-Known Member
Orcas CAN be kept sucessfully, because they are be kept successfully in Human Care since exactly 50 Years. Since the First breeding in 1985, 49 calfs were be Born and raised successfully, in the meantime in F3 Generation,teh first calf in F4 Generation is due for the end of that year,and of the 54 animals are currently in human care, 34of them are Born in Human Care.
Don't Forget how many Gorillas,Orangs and Chimps had to be die, until they were kept and bred successfully in human care ? Much more than Orcas or bottle nosed dolphins...and it took much longer for the first Youngsters in F3 Generation...
And I'm sure, the Orcas at Seaworld are living in much better conditions than the two hippos at Adventure Aquarium in their tiny concrete,year-round Indoor-Exhibit....to name just one example.
Bib Fortuna
Well-Known Member
Again, I have to be totally agree with Bib Fortuna.
(Although I can't resist to ask: Where is the difference to elephant seals?)
Oh, the are many diffrences...
Bib Fortuna
Well-Known Member
What about this reasons for Apes,Antelopes or, of course, elephants ? When it Comes to bodysize, ist impossible to Keep elephants in Human Crae, when it Comes to movement, it ist impossible for most other animals, wouldn't you agree ? But I think, this thread isn't the right place for a General discussion about Orcas in Human Care.
My opinion is-who thinks, orcas shouldn't be in"CAPTIVITY", should think about Apes,Elephants,Big Cats or Bears in"Captivity".
There are only two kinds of Orca welfare-good ones, bad ones.Miami Aquarium is the best example for a bad way to Keep an orca...
Since you have brought up elephants, it is possible to compare orcas to elephants, both intellectually, socially, and in terms of size. New guidelines should be made to regulate the facilities that hold orcas, not ban the captivity. That would be the same as saying that elephants should be banned from zoos because they are difficult to maintain. The regulations should give the minimum size of the enclosure and social grouping that orcas are to be maintained in. Orcas can be held in captivity with the proper resources and welfare.
Then by that concept flying birds can not be properly housed in captivity, either. There is not one singular cage that can even hope to come close to the amount of space a bird would be able to fly in the wild (especially larger birds, or ones that prefer soaring flight)
So does that mean birds are un-fit for captivity? As everyone knows, no.
Although there are things that could be done better (current machines, larger pools, etc...) just because they aren't in oceans doesn't mean they can't enact a standard range of movement (such as breaching, diving, fast swimming, rubbing behaviours, etc...all of which they can do in a captive environment)
So does that mean birds are un-fit for captivity? As everyone knows, no.
Although there are things that could be done better (current machines, larger pools, etc...) just because they aren't in oceans doesn't mean they can't enact a standard range of movement (such as breaching, diving, fast swimming, rubbing behaviours, etc...all of which they can do in a captive environment)
I actually believe that larger birds, especially birds of prey should not be kept in captivity unless they are flown on a regular basis.
So assuming it is agreed upon that current facilities do not have large enough enclosures for orcas in captivity, do the stimulation and enrichment (in shows, social groupings, interactions, etc.) make up for the lack of space that the orcas are placed in?
I believe that for the current situation of orcas in captivity , mental stimulation with humans is not the problem, the problem is the size of the pools. I understand that the size of the pool will never replicate situations in the wild, but if an orca can swim across its pool and back within a few seconds, is it not compared to stereotyping behavior?
I believe that for the current situation of orcas in captivity , mental stimulation with humans is not the problem, the problem is the size of the pools. I understand that the size of the pool will never replicate situations in the wild, but if an orca can swim across its pool and back within a few seconds, is it not compared to stereotyping behavior?
wensleydale
Well-Known Member
Miami Seaquarium can't be that bad, given that Lolita is still alive and healthy after the better part of 45 years. Yes she is the only Killer Whale there and her pool is relatively small but otherwise she isn't lacking in anything. She has consistency, which Killer Whales seem to thrive on. She seems to have had the same trainers for a long time, she isn't lacking for attention from them. She gets fed no matter what. She at least has the Pacific White Sided Dolphins for company, and this is a species that will associate with other cetaceans, including resident Killer Whales. They seem to be very comfortable with her, I have seen videos of them jumping over her without being prompted. The water in her pool is kept cool.
Would I have picked this for her? No. Do I think that improvements could be made on her living situation. Yes. I think that she would benefit from a larger living space, but preferably without subjecting her to a move while it is being built. The farthest I would send her is Orlando, and even that I think would be risking it. Another Killer Whale buddy? Yes. But her white sided companions should be kept just in case that don't get along. That might be a benefit of an (admittedly unrealistic) transfer (temporary or no) to SeaWorld, she would get to have some contact with some other Killer Whales while having a place to get away from them if things don't work out.
I am opposed to any sort of release for her. Her natal pods dynamics have changed significantly since her capture. She has lost any fear she might have of humans. Her former home range is now horribly polluted. She has little to no resistance to any pathogens that might lurk. Money spent on releasing her would be better spent on conservation measures for the Southern Residents that are still there.
The Seaquarium is being sold, hopefully the company that buys it will be willing to invest in these kinds of improvements. But I'm rambling. Anyway, my point is that space isn't the only contributing factor to a long life. And I think we will crack keeping them in captivity soon, we're just going to need to stay tuned.
Bib Fortuna
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I agree, and to keep the famous Silverback Willie B. for 27 Years alone in a tiny bathromm cage at Atlanta Zoo, 27 years INSIDE, couldn't be to bad for him also, because he has lived there such a long time...yes,space isn't the only thing for animals in zoos, and Willi B. was doing well in his bathroom-isolated, but fed every day, and he something, what other animals at zoos never had-his own Tv !
You see, i don't agree with you.A long life dosen't mean,"Lolita"was or is doing well at this Place...to keep an orca alone, can never be the way to keep this social animals in human care-