British Isles Cup Redux - League B - Jersey vs Colchester

Jersey vs Colchester - HOOFSTOCK

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Can I ask, what is your problem with Jersey as you definitely have to seem some issue with them ?
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I have no issues with Jersey, it is just very weak in certain categories and I personally don't believe conservation efforts count over the collection and it's enclosures! If a zoo has nothing or next to nothing in a category, I won't give it anything! I think that is fair enough under the rules!
 
pipaluk said:
I have no issues with Jersey, it is just very weak in certain categories and I personally don't believe conservation efforts count over the collection and it's enclosures! If a zoo has nothing or next to nothing in a category, I won't give it anything! I think that is fair enough under the rules!
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I'm actually quite stunned by what you've said.

Personally I do firmly believe that ex-situ and in-situ conservation efforts count 100 times more over a collection.

I also believe conservation effort and output counts over enclosures too (if we are talking about million dollar fancy state of the art "replicas" of their natural habitats over enclosures which just decently do the job and serve the animals wellbeing well).

I dont really know how anyone could think otherwise but oh well there you go, thats your opinion and mine differs greatly. We obviously have very different core values / worldviews as you are a zoo visitor / enthusiast and I'm a conservationist.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
I'm actually quite stunned by what you've said.

Personally I do firmly believe that ex-situ and in-situ conservation efforts count 100 times more over a collection.

I also believe conservation effort and output counts over enclosures too (if we are talking about million dollar fancy state of the art "replicas" of their natural habitats over enclosures which just decently do the job and serve the animals wellbeing well).

I dont really know how anyone could think otherwise but oh well there you go, thats your opinion and mine differs greatly. We obviously have very different core values / worldviews as you are a zoo visitor / enthusiast and I'm a conservationist.
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I consider this a contest between zoos and what they have to offer, which I believe I am allowed to do??!!!
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
I'm actually quite stunned by what you've said.
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If you read back over previous Cup threads, I think you will be less stunned - @pipaluk's view is far from unique on this forum, and giving either more or equal credit to collection and presentation as to conservation is the norm for most who participate, I believe. Your view - that conservation counts for "100x more than collection" is actually more the outlier. In fact (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) the original European Cup featured conservation very little - it wasn't until one of the first rounds of either the American Cup or Global Cup that conservation started to take on an equal role in the discussion to collection and exhibits.
 
Coelacanth18 said:
If you read back over previous Cup threads, I think you will be less stunned - @pipaluk's view is far from unique on this forum, and giving either more or equal credit to collection and presentation as to conservation is the norm for most who participate, I believe. Your view - that conservation counts for "100x more than collection" is actually more the outlier. In fact (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) the original European Cup featured conservation very little - it wasn't until one of the first rounds of either the American Cup or Global Cup that conservation started to take on an equal role in the discussion to collection and exhibits.
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Well I guess I'm an outlier then aren't I ?

Moreover, I would say that this has to be a good thing IMO as it adds to the debate / discussion.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
So, what *was* your argument for Jersey being a better zoo for hoofstock then, if it wasn't "I don't think UK zoos can keep hoofstock well, so the fact Jersey don't keep hoofstock makes them better", "I incorrectly think this is an unfair match" or "I have fond memories of studying at Jersey so want it to win", which are the three arguments you seem to have been making throughout this match?

For future reference, we'll be accepting the borderline votes this time, but if we think people are just voting for the collection they prefer without abiding by the rules @CGSwans and myself may have to reassess this going forward.
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Interestingly I have given this some thought over the last few days. I have voted in the context of what I think a zoo should be, and my vote was in accordance with what I saw as "the vibe", which seems to be the way most people vote in this competition. However if I were to take part in a more consistent manner (which I can't, for a couple of reasons) I would seek to vote through a more analytical approach. I would have a points system, going something like this:
  • 1 point for each species held. It is good to have a varied collection however just adding species for no reason is poor practice. Some zoos think that the more species you have, the more people you will attract. Wrong. 99% of the public don't care about that, what they want is an enjoyable experience. The 1% (Zoochatters included) will probably come anyway. Too many species in the collection means less money for what matters, good exhibits, good welfare and conservation.
  • No extra points for a basic exhibit. Bonus points for, in order, naturalist, dioramic and immersive exhibits. Bonus points in mixed exhibits for animals being from, in order, same habitat types, same ecosystems. Points off for poor design however manifested.
  • No extra points for meeting recognised welfare standards. It is expected these days. Big points off for welfare issues. Looking at your photos I would have some concerns with the savanna exhibit, interspecies aggression, no sight barriers so animals can remove themselves from direct sight of other animals including visitors, minimal shade and shelter, and no evidence of enrichment. Bonus points for outstanding welfare examples.
  • It is no surprise that my system would be heavily weighted towards conservation. Extra points in order for good education, supporting projects financially in the wild, supporting campaigns, breeding for release in a recovery program, and leading a program in situ. The more involved, the more points. I'd give something like 40 or 60 points for the pygmy hog project. No extra points for full involvement in EAZA EEP or for basic conservation information on labels, it's expected. However points off if not.
You can see how Jersey would come out on top for me. Of course you would be perfectly entitled to put whatever weighting you want. You may think that conservation and welfare are not as important as having a large collection. Be aware though, that conservation and welfare are what the public expect of zoos these days. I know because I have seen the research.

One final thing, I do think hoofstock can be satisfactorily housed in Europe. I'm thinking of Zurich Zoo's elephant house, for instance.
 
Can I be clear to all that people’s criteria for what factors they consider are up to them. The debate is about the ‘what’, not the ‘how’. You can give as much or as little weighting to conservation as you like.
 
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MRJ said:
Of course you would be perfectly entitled to put whatever weighting you want. You may think that conservation and welfare are not as important as having a large collection. Be aware though, that conservation and welfare are what the public expect of zoos these days. I know because I have seen the research.
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Oh, I think both factors are very important - my reservations about your vote were based on the fact that you appeared to be voting without this having any actual basis in the category at hand, per your comments about it "not being a fair match" and asking why Jersey would even want or need hoofstock in the first place, combined with your repeated assumptions based on looking at a map that all Colchester could possibly offer was "a collection of the usual suspects confined to most probably muddy paddocks enduring the fog and drizzle.....in summer [and] during winter ..... no doubt confined to some dark and cramped stall out of sight" or "a couple of zebras shivering in a muddy paddock", assumptions you didn't back down on even when I provided photographic proof this was not the case. These latter points are also why I had the impression you are of the opinion it is not possible for hoofstock to be satisfactorily held in the UK, which your remark about Zurich doesn't actually contradict!

Or to put it another way, my concern was that you gave the impression several times that even if Jersey hadn't had a conservation programme based around a single hoofstock species you would have still voted for them in the category of "hoofstock" :p and not that you place upmost importance on conservation and welfare rather than anything else.

But the die is cast and the match is done, so it's all behind us now :)
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
I'm actually quite stunned by what you've said.

Personally I do firmly believe that ex-situ and in-situ conservation efforts count 100 times more over a collection.

I also believe conservation effort and output counts over enclosures too (if we are talking about million dollar fancy state of the art "replicas" of their natural habitats over enclosures which just decently do the job and serve the animals wellbeing well).

I dont really know how anyone could think otherwise but oh well there you go, thats your opinion and mine differs greatly. We obviously have very different core values / worldviews as you are a zoo visitor / enthusiast and I'm a conservationist.
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While I do believe conservation efforts are just as important as collections, for ZooChat Cups I put a lot more weight on collection and exhibitry.
 
birdsandbats said:
While I do believe conservation efforts are just as important as collections, for ZooChat Cups I put a lot more weight on collection and exhibitry.
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I just put weight on conservation efforts full stop for zoochat cups or anything else when it comes to zoos really but that is just my way of looking at things.
 
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