Captive Orca Population

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sacchi said:
Maybe Inouk has an issue with his teeth again? Another tooth/jaw infection. His teeth are terrible.

I cant see the transfer going ahead if we loose Inouk too. The whole reason for the move is because Japan needs males. Keijo would probably be of less value since he is inbred.

I'm not worried about the transfer itself being a problem. As far as I'm aware we have never lost a killer whale during transport. MLF have been training the whales for it for weeks now. Plus, if the newly captured Russian whales can survive being in transport crate for 2 weeks as they were trucked over China, I think the MLF whales will be ok spending a day travelling (I'm not condoning the Russian captures/transfers. It was an awful thing to subject the whales too).

The danger comes post transport. The chance of illness and death is increased for several months after a transport due to the stress of the move and adjusting to a new environment / routine / trainers / tank mates etc... MLF and KSW are very different facilities.
Click to expand...
Potentially; a lot of Marineland's orcas have been known to have really bad teeth.

I still believe the move would certainly go ahead (even in the event, we tragically lose Inouk). I think it would even more reason to get the remaining pair to a new facility where both can have the opportunity to breed and of course, meet new whales.

In saying that, it would make things more difficult re. where they would go. I'd assume Wikie and Keijo will be sent to a separate facility each. It makes sense to send Keijo to Kamogawa and Wikie then to Nagoya/Suma. But obviously things would be easier with Inouk as he would be a good candidate for Nagoya (paired with Stella/Lynn).
 
Inouk has some of the worst teeth of any captive orca so it'd make sense if their was a tooth/jaw infection at play. I believe even in the event of Inouk's loss (let's hope he heals up), the transfer would still occur. I don't see how else Japan would be able to get new male orcas anytime soon otherwise.
 
Yeah sure. To be clear, I don't think they should/would stay at MLF if something happened to Inouk. Just that the Japan deal may be called off. I imagine Japan were planning on having a male at each park. I could see them going to Loro Parque, or SeaWorld even.

If it does go through, I would do;

Keijo to Nagoya - he can be used as companionship for Earth. Not to be used for breeding (or at least, only as a last resort, if something happens to Inouk). I wouldn't breed Stella again.

Wikie and Ran - suma. AI Wikie.

Inouk to KSW - mate for Lara. Luna can watch Lovey raise her calf then mate with Inouk. Either Lara or Luna then go to Suma too.

Send Ran or Lynn to KSW temporarily for mating or AI them.

If Lovey starts being aggressive with Inouk like she was with Oscar, then there is enough room to send him to Suma where he can mate with Ran or Nagoya to mate with Lynn directly.


If Inouk dies before the move, then who knows. I guess it depends on what kind of AI/breeding deal they made with Chimelong.
 
Sacchi said:
Yeah sure. To be clear, I don't think they should/would stay at MLF if something happened to Inouk. Just that the Japan deal may be called off. I imagine Japan were planning on having a male at each park. I could see them going to Loro Parque, or SeaWorld even.

If it does go through, I would do;

Keijo to Nagoya - he can be used as companionship for Earth. Not to be used for breeding (or at least, only as a last resort, if something happens to Inouk). I wouldn't breed Stella again.

Wikie and Ran - suma. AI Wikie.

Inouk to KSW - mate for Lara. Luna can watch Lovey raise her calf then mate with Inouk. Either Lara or Luna then go to Suma too.

Send Ran or Lynn to KSW temporarily for mating or AI them.

If Lovey starts being aggressive with Inouk like she was with Oscar, then there is enough room to send him to Suma where he can mate with Ran or Nagoya to mate with Lynn directly.


If Inouk dies before the move, then who knows. I guess it depends on what kind of AI/breeding deal they made with Chimelong.
Click to expand...
I don't see Loro Parque taking them, and I don't think Seaworld would too; considering the negative publicity they would bring (especially as SW has managed to seemingly move away from having their orcas in the spotlight recently).

If Japan did cancel though, and ML were forced to find an alternative solution, Seaworld Orlando would be the only suitable location. San Diego can't acquire additional orcas, and San Antonio's close to capacity.

I think we can agree the most likely destination for Keijo is Nagoya, to be a companion for Earth, and breed with Lynn and Stella. I see no reason why Stella shouldn't be breed from again; her raising a calf would be valuable experience for Lynn.

Wikie will probably be a Suma whale imo, joining the two other KSW females there (probably Ran and Luna). AI will probably be used here.

Inouk would then be left for KSW; where he would breed with Lovey and Lara. Would obviously join Lovey's expectant calf there too.

In the event Inouk doesn't make it across; I'm still confident the same remains, and Kamogawa continue to use AI going forward with Keijo at Nagoya.
 
Sacchi said:
Yeah sure. To be clear, I don't think they should/would stay at MLF if something happened to Inouk. Just that the Japan deal may be called off. I imagine Japan were planning on having a male at each park. I could see them going to Loro Parque, or SeaWorld even.
Click to expand...

I have read rumors that Marineland actually chose not to send them to Loro Parque due to welfare concerns. The recent information that has come out on how the diets of Loro Parque's cetaceans were heavily mismanaged makes me believe these rumors to be true. If Japan were to cancel the deal for whatever reason they'd most likely be forced to try and strike a deal with Seaworld and if not them then a Chinese park.
 
BlobfishBoy said:
I have read rumors that Marineland actually chose not to send them to Loro Parque due to welfare concerns. The recent information that has come out on how the diets of Loro Parque's cetaceans were heavily mismanaged makes me believe these rumors to be true. If Japan were to cancel the deal for whatever reason they'd most likely be forced to try and strike a deal with Seaworld and if not them then a Chinese park.
Click to expand...
Correct, although I'm of the opinion the Japanese move is going to happen whether Inouk is apart of it or not. Japan are in dire need of new male genetics, and Wikie would be valuable too as she'd be able to be breed with Earth.

If it comes down to the point where the Japanese move can't occur (for whatever reason), Seaworld is really the only realistic option remaining; and that specific park would be Orlando.
 
Jambo said:
I don't see Loro Parque taking them, and I don't think Seaworld would too; considering the negative publicity they would bring (especially as SW has managed to seemingly move away from having their orcas in the spotlight recently).
Click to expand...

Apparently SeaWorld were having meetings with MSQ in which they offered to take Lolita, before the whole whale sanctuary project debacle ended the talks (according to ThemedReality on FaceBook). Which is something I've sworn up and down for years that they would never do. Who knows how far along those talks actually were though. Maybe the would take the MLF whales. Put a rescue PR spin on it. They could pull it off now, but they couldn't have 5 years ago.

Can SWC import some outside whales that are listed as emergency cases, if they say MLF can't house them anymore as the tank is failing?. Are rescues included in the import ban? (genuine question).

Re Inouk, I was trying to think of other parks with Icelandic stock that they could mix with, but there is always the possibility they send the whales to live in China with the Russian's, or to a new park entirely. There were rumours of MLF sending whales to L'Oceanogràfic a few years ago.

I'm just spitballing really. I have no idea how this will all play out. They probably will just go to Japan as planned tbh.
 
Sacchi said:
Apparently SeaWorld were having meetings with MSQ in which they offered to take Lolita, before the whole whale sanctuary project debacle ended the talks (according to ThemedReality on FaceBook). Which is something I've sworn up and down for years that they would never do. Who knows how far along those talks actually were though.
Click to expand...

Now that's interesting - and given the rather scathing USDA reports on MSQ its a shame it didn't go through. Lolita could have maybe gotten proper veterinary attention and might still be alive in a facility that would properly care for her. Unfortunately that's all water under the bridge now. Not surprised SeaWorld backed out when sanctuary talks arose, they wouldn't want to get mixed up in unnecessary AR stuff.

Sacchi said:
Can SWC import some outside whales that are listed as emergency cases, if they say MLF can't house them anymore as the tank is failing?. Are rescues included in the import ban? (genuine question).
Click to expand...

Afaik, makes no difference. Maybe I'm wrong there, but no doubt somebody would get ahold of it due to permitting and everything and make a stupid AR stink.
 
Sacchi said:
Apparently SeaWorld were having meetings with MSQ in which they offered to take Lolita, before the whole whale sanctuary project debacle ended the talks (according to ThemedReality on FaceBook). Which is something I've sworn up and down for years that they would never do. Who knows how far along those talks actually were though.

I'm just spitballing really. I have no idea how this will all play out. They probably will just go to Japan as planned tbh.
Click to expand...

I’ve never heard that before. If it’s true it’s honestly deplorable that MSQ decided to pursue a sanctuary that we all knew wasn’t gonna be fruitful. They had an opportunity to quickly provide her acceptable living conditions and opportunity for social interaction and denied it for the pr spin of the sanctuary. Makes me really disappointed.
 
katinakalinakaterina said:
Just thought I would create an up-to-date list for anyone who is interested:
- North America
- Marineland Ontario (Canada)
- Kiska (Female) (Wild Caught) (??/10/1979) (Iceland)

- Miami Seaquarium (Florida)
- Lolita (Female) (Wild Caught) (08/08/1970) (Penn Cove)
​
- SeaWorld Orlando (Florida)
- Katina (Female) (Wild Caught) (26/10/1978) (Iceland)
- Trua (Male) (Captive Born) (23/11/2005) (Takara & Taku)
- Nalani (Female) (Captive Born) (18/09/2006) (Katina & Taku)
- Malia (Female) (Captive Born) (12/03/2007) (Taima & Tilikum)
- Makaio (Male) (Captive Born) (09/10/2010) (Katina & Tilikum)

- SeaWorld San Antonio (Texas)
- Takara (Female) (Captive Born) (09/07/1991) (Kasatka & Kotar)
- Kyuquot (Male) (Captive Born) (24/12/1991) (Haida II & Tilikum)
- Tuar (Male) (Captive Born) (22/06/1999) (Kalina & Tilikum)
- Sakari (Female) (Captive Born) (07/01/2010) (Takara & Tilikum)
- Kamea (Female) (Captive Born) (06/12/2013) (Takara & Kshamenk)

- SeaWorld San Diego (California)
- Corky II (Female) (Wild Caught) (12/12/1969) (Pender Harbour)
- Ulises (Male) (Wild Caught) (19/11/1980) (Iceland)
- Orkid (Female) (Captive Born) (23/09/1988) (Kandu V & Orky II)
- Keet (Male) (Captive Born) (02/02/1993) (Kalina & Kotar)
- Shouka (Female) (Captive Born) (25/02/1993) (Sharkane & Kim II)
- Nakai (Male) (Captive Born) (01/09/2001) (Kasatka & Tilikum)
- Ikaika (Male) (Captive Born) (25/08/2002) (Katina & Tilikum)
- Kalia (Female) (Captive Born) (21/12/2004) (Kasatka & Keet)
- Makani (Male) (Captive Born) (14/02/2013) (Kasaka & Kshamenk)
- Amaya (Female) (Captive Born) (02/12/2014) (Kalia & Ulises)

- South America
- Mundo Marino (Argentina)
- Kshamenk (Male) (Wild Caught) (19/09/1992) (Argentina)

- Europe
- Centre for Adaptation of Marine Mammals (TINRO) (Russia)
- Leha (Male) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)
- Tihon (Male) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)
- Vitas (Female?) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)
- Zoya (Female) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)
- Zina (Female) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)
- Gaika (Female) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)
- Forest (Unknown) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)
- Harja (Unknown) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)
- Vasilievna (Female) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)
- Alexandra (Female) (Wild Caught) (??/08/2018) (Russia)

- Loro Parque (Spain)
- Keto (Male) (Captive Born) (17/06/1995) (Kalina & Kotar)
- Tekoa (Male) (Captive Born) (08/11/2000) (Taima & Tilikum)
- Kohana (Female) (Captive Born) (03/05/2002) (Takara & Tilikum)
- Skyla (Female) (Captive Born) (09/02/2004) (Kalina & Tilikum)
- Morgan (Female) (Wild Caught) (23/06/2010) (The Netherlands)
- Adan (Male) (Captive Born) (13/10/2010) (Kohana & Keto)
- Ula (Female) (Captive Born) (22/09/2018) (Morgan & Keto/Tekoa)

- Marineland Antibes (France)
- Inouk (Male) (Captive Born) (23/02/1999) (Sharkane & Kim II)
- Wikie (Female) (Captive Born) (01/06/2001) (Sharkane & Kim II)
- Moana (Male) (Captive Born) (16/03/2011) (Wikie & Ulises)
- Keijo (Male) (Captive Born) (20/11/2013) (Wikie & Valentin)

- Moskvarium (Russia)
- Narnia (Female) (Wild Caught) (11/08/2012) (Russia)
- Nord (Male) (Wild Caught) (13/08/2013) (Russia)
- Naja/Malishka/Juliet (Female) (Wild Caught) (??/07/2014) (Russia)​

- Asia
- Chimelong Ocean Kingdom (China)
- Tyson? (Male) (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Orpheus? (Male) (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Unknown Male (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Unknown Male (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Unknown Male (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Nukka? (Female) (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Grace? (Female) (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Unknown Female (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Unknown Female (Wild Caught) (Russia)

- Kamogawa Sea World (Japan)
- Lovey (Female) (Captive Born) (11/01/1998) (Stella & Bingo)
- Lara (Female) (Captive Born) (08/02/2001) (Stella & Bingo)
- Ran II (Female) (Captive Born) (25/02/2006) (Stella & Bingo)
- Luna (Female) (Captive Born) (19/07/2012) (Lovey & Oscar)

- Linyi Polar Ocean World (China) (may hold two (unconfirmed) animals, intend to display four)
- Unknown (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Unknown (Wild Caught) (Russia)​

- Port of Nagoya Public Aquarium (Japan)
- Stella (Female) (Wild Caught) (??/10/1987) (Iceland)
- Earth (Male) (Captive Born) (13/10/2008) (Lovey & Oscar)
- Lynn (Female) (Captive Born) (13/11/2012) (Stella & Bingo)

- Shanghai Haichang Ocean Park (China) (temporarily held at Dalian Laohutan Ocean Park)
- Wow? (Male) (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Dora? (Female) (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Unknown Male (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Unknown Female (Wild Caught) (Russia)

- SunAsia Beluga Whale World (China)
- Intends to hold orcas, none at present

- Wuxi Changqiao Ocean Kingdom (China)
- Unknown (Wild Caught) (Russia)
- Unknown (Wild Caught) (Russia)
Click to expand...
Shouka's father is actually Tanouk.
 
Jambo said:
No it’s not, it’s Kim 2. It was believed there was a possibility Tanouk was her father, but this has since been proved incorrect.
Click to expand...

Definitely Kim 2, that was the whole reason Shouka was moved as he was trying to mate with her, I guess that's a point in Marineland's favour, they recognised the risk of this and moved Shouka. Not sure why SWO didn't do the same with Taku before he and Katina mated.
 
California's orca bill/law prohibits the import/export/breeding of orcas but it provides an opportunity for a facility to apply for an exemption with the federal government. This also exists under the MMPA and ESA.

People apply for them all the time (i/e universities importing an ESA-listed animal for research purposes, trophy hunters importing deceased endangered animals, oil companies wanting to do something oil company-y [for lack of better words] that might impact marine mammals.)

These are all called 'take permits' - I imagine that the CA law creates enough of an exemption clause to allow for the import or export of an orca if the request approved by USDA or USFWS.

(4) Export, transport, move, or sell an orca located in the state to another state or country unless otherwise authorized by federal law or if the transfer is to another facility within North America that meets standards comparable to those provided under the Animal Welfare Act (7 U.S.C. Sec. 2131 and following).​

TL;DR, MLF orcas could in theory still be imported into California or other US facilities despite CA's orca breeding/transfer ban. Whether it would actually happen or not is a different story.
 
katinakalinakaterina said:
Definitely Kim 2, that was the whole reason Shouka was moved as he was trying to mate with her, I guess that's a point in Marineland's favour, they recognised the risk of this and moved Shouka. Not sure why SWO didn't do the same with Taku before he and Katina mated.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's absolutely right. Good initiative taken by ML in that sense.

SWO actually later moved Taku on (after the birth of Nalani), but this was more as a result of Katina initially rejecting young Nalani in favour of spending time with her two other sons, Taku and Ike. It's quite interesting to me that Katina shared a close relationship with those two sons of hers, but then not so much with Makaio.
 
Jambo said:
Yes, that's absolutely right. Good initiative taken by ML in that sense.

SWO actually later moved Taku on (after the birth of Nalani), but this was more as a result of Katina initially rejecting young Nalani in favour of spending time with her two other sons, Taku and Ike. It's quite interesting to me that Katina shared a close relationship with those two sons of hers, but then not so much with Makaio.
Click to expand...

I'm sure Sewaorld said somewhere that Katina bonded better/was closer with her male calves than her female calves, likely as a result of both Kalina and Katerina being removed fairly young. Taku and Ikaika both remained with her longer. I also remember that in one of the That's My Baby shows, one of the trainers stated that Kalina encouraged her calves to be independent earlier than the other females, again possibly as a result of being separated earlier from Keet.
 
katinakalinakaterina said:
I'm sure Sewaorld said somewhere that Katina bonded better/was closer with her male calves than her female calves, likely as a result of both Kalina and Katerina being removed fairly young. Taku and Ikaika both remained with her longer. I also remember that in one of the That's My Baby shows, one of the trainers stated that Kalina encouraged her calves to be independent earlier than the other females, again possibly as a result of being separated earlier from Keet.
Click to expand...
The difference in parenting was something that I found intriguing. Some speculate their wild upbringing is a contributing factor and is a learning experience, whereas others presume it's more personality. I think it can go both ways; Kasatka was a far more fierce mother and was very protective of her calves, something that her daughters (Takara and Kalia) both learned to an extent. Kalina was also very protective of her calves, especially during waterwork which was mentioned on her profile. But her calves were usually far more independent at an earlier age, compared to Katina or Kasatka; her last calf, Skyla was sent to LP at just two!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top