Captive Orca Population

[Hyak_II]

Oh also, re: social grouping, Orlando would probably be the worst facility for her to go to in terms of socialization.

As mentioned above, Katina is actually kind of a ****** whale, and she can have a hard time socializing with other females, especially if they’re dominant. Nalani and Malia are both fairly dominant animals as well. It’s difficult to say how Toki would react with other killer whales after so long, but to do so with animals that are known to be dominant and have issues with new or dominant individuals are not the ones to try with.

San Diego would definitely be the best, as they have a number of very socially amiable, easy-going whales.

San Antonio would be my number two choice, Takara is a dominant female and makes that known, but she’s socially savvy, a good matriarch, and the pod is very stable overall.

Orlando would definitely be my last choice by a fairly significant margin. Their pod structure is iffy at best, and all of their females are on the dominant and more belligerent side.

 

[Jambo]

I personally, do not want tokitae to be moved. That animal has lived in complete social isolation from other orcas for 42 years, and has been in the exact same habitat for even longer.

While I do wish overall she could be in a better habitat and have same species social companions, at this point in her life, I would be incredibly concerned that trying to do that would kill her. Although she is generally known as a fairly healthy and good natured animal, she’s also EXTREMELY change adversive (to the point where if she misses a que during a routine session and receives an LRS, she will break control to fast swim in agitation), and she’s also by all accounts, very old. The combination of such extreme change, coupled with her overall agent personality, could very well cause enough stress to do the poor whale in. If she was 30 years younger, I would say it would definitely be worth a chance, but at this point, is it really worth it?

Back in my aquarium days, I was heavily involved in the training field, and attended a number of conferences and meet ups where I got to talk to her actual trainers in a candid fashion (not the usual public perception spiel they give to the general public). They all love her and wish she had better living conditions, but none of them want them want them changed now, for the mentioned reasons above. if they were somehow able to construct an additional pool onto the whale bowl where it currently is, merely sectioning off the little back portion of the pool with watertight gates to complete the link to the new addition, I think that would be fine with her, as she could then enter the new habitat at her own pace, but anything more than that would have to be taken with extreme, extreme caution.

I'd personally only like to see Lolita (Tokitae) stay if her pool is extended. It is tiny to say the least, and the Seaworld pools are much, much bigger. Her health has also been up and down in the past too. Only last year it was announced she was quite unwell but luckily made a recovery. Seaworld have a much better care team that would benefit her more, in my opinion. Even if she cannot be socialised with the other whales, she can still live in much better facilites, with much better care. It would be better for her overall compared to her current situation.

 

[Jambo]

Oh also, re: social grouping, Orlando would probably be the worst facility for her to go to in terms of socialization.

As mentioned above, Katina is actually kind of a ****** whale, and she can have a hard time socializing with other females, especially if they’re dominant. Nalani and Malia are both fairly dominant animals as well. It’s difficult to say how Toki would react with other killer whales after so long, but to do so with animals that are known to be dominant and have issues with new or dominant individuals are not the ones to try with.

San Diego would definitely be the best, as they have a number of very socially amiable, easy-going whales.

San Antonio would be my number two choice, Takara is a dominant female and makes that known, but she’s socially savvy, a good matriarch, and the pod is very stable overall.

Orlando would definitely be my last choice by a fairly significant margin. Their pod structure is iffy at best, and all of their females are on the dominant and more belligerent side.

I 100% agree.

Katina is extremely dominant and does not like to be challenged whatsoever. She's had problems with almost all, if not all the whales that have been at Orlando. She was horrible towards Tilikum, and often raked him over and over again. One female, Takara, who's now at San Antonio was sent there only because she was challenging Katina and fights were occurring far too often. Shows have been cancelled too many times over there, and right on the day Dawn Branchaeu died, there was apparently a dispute between Katina and Kayla which lead to the cancelling of a show. It is believed this ruckus may have lead Tilikum to be stressed and do the act, although we will never know.

San Diego's females are all very easy going. Their matriarch is Kalia, and she's only young. There's also Keet, Corky, Orkid and Ikaika that are very amiable whales. Lolita has plenty of options here, and I think this would be the best destination, albeit it being on the other side on the country.

Takara can be quite dominant which may be an issue. If she can't get along well with Takara and her daughters, don't think she'll get along with the boys, especially Kyuquot who is overtly dominant for a male, who actually served as the dominant whale at San Antonio at one point in the past.

San Diego is the best place. And really the only option imo.

 

[Jambo]

San Diego would definitely be the best, as they have a number of very socially amiable, easy-going whales.

I've just remembered that this cannot happen. A bill introduced by the Californian government back in 2016 includes no imports, nor exports. It appears the only options are San Antonio and Orlando now.

San Antonio would be best but on the other hand, they do have limited space meaning Lolita would have to be integrated with one of their two groups, otherwise there isn't the space for her. So it does appear maybe Orlando is the best option now. At least they have the space for Lolita if she dosen't get along well with any of the other whales.


Interesting side-note: Lolita may actually be related to some of Seaworld's orcas. She was captured alongside a male named Winston, who sired the original baby shamu, Kalina. Although Kalina isn't alive today, she still has two surviving calves across the Seaworld parks (Keet and Tuar), and even a grandchild, Kalia through Keet. Just quite fascinating to find out this as maybe Lolita does have family at Seaworld.

 

[Great Argus]

I've just remembered that this cannot happen. A bill introduced by the Californian government back in 2016 includes no imports, nor exports. It appears the only options are San Antonio and Orlando now.

This is frustratingly true. All whales at SW SD are stuck there, and no transfers can happen in or out unless the bill gets overturned. The bill was heavily supported/pushed by PETA and they hailed it a major victory when it went through. I highly doubt it will ever be overturned, as the CA legislature has been too prone to listening to aras in general. Particularly with SeaWorld themselves to be going out of orcas once the last one dies due to pressure from the animal rights groups.

 

[Jambo]

This is frustratingly true. All whales at SW SD are stuck there, and no transfers can happen in or out unless the bill gets overturned. The bill was heavily supported/pushed by PETA and they hailed it a major victory when it went through. I highly doubt it will ever be overturned, as the CA legislature has been too prone to listening to aras in general. Particularly with SeaWorld themselves to be going out of orcas once the last one dies due to pressure from the animal rights groups.

It's generally a shame as San Diego had the most diverse breeding population out of all the parks. PETA have obviously assumed this is a win, as the breeding ban in San Diego largely contributed to the end of Orca breeding in Seaworld. San Diego's population at the time stood at 11 Orcas. The other two parks combined had twelve. Taking San Diego out of the equation really shot a hole into their breeding program. It's just a shame as breeding is such a natural behaviour for the orcas and what the activists don't seem to realise is we'll still have orcas in captivity for a long long time, especially considering the new Russian captures who are beginning to start breeding in China.

Florida state too did attempt to pass a bill but it barely made it through the stages over there. There is still a fair chance Seaworld could continue breeding (outside of San Diego), but this would have to involve contributions via AI from Kangowa, Antibes and Mundo Marino. I doubt Seaworld would go to the lengths of bringing in some young russian orcas though. That would surely create a lot of backlash.

 

[zoomaniac]

@Jambo. Very well said (or rather written). To be fair: Afaik, it was SeaWorlds own decision to stopp breeding (although we can be sure that this only happen because of the presure from outside - animal rights activists and profiling addicted politicians). Therefore I also doubt that SW Orlando will take the chance to breed via AI or import specimens from outside USA, from which sources ever.

It is important that zoological institutes and their supportes (=us for example) realize, that a ban of keeping cetaceans beyond human care is only the beginning for animal rights activists to reach their final goal: close zoos, aquarias and marine parks for good. Polar bears, elephants, apes and big cats can/will be next, if we don't stop them. Unfortunately this is a point that even some (very valued, handsome, honorable and otherwise well infomed) members of this forum (try to) ignore...

 

[Jambo]

@Jambo. Very well said (or rather written). To be fair: Afaik, it was SeaWorlds own decision to stopp breeding (although we can be sure that this only happen because of the presure from outside - animal rights activists and profiling addicted politicians). Therefore I also doubt that SW Orlando will take the chance to breed via AI or import specimens from outside USA, from which sources ever.

It is important that zoological institutes and their supportes (=us for example) realize, that a ban of keeping cetaceans beyond human care is only the beginning for animal rights activists to reach their final goal: close zoos, aquarias and marine parks for good. Polar bears, elephants, apes and big cats can/will be next, if we don't stop them. Unfortunately this is a point that even some (very valued, handsome, honorable and otherwise well infomed) members of this forum (try to) ignore...

The decisions was ultimately due to blackfish and all the pressure from activists and the general public; they had to make a change to sort of get back in the public's good books. Seaworld managed to stop the bill going through in Florida, which dosen't necessarily show they want to continue breeding them, but would rather leave the door open so they can if they decide to in the future. Although I see it highly unlikely, there's still a small chance that they might go back once all the blackfish hype dies down.

It's utterly such a shame as Seaworld has had to pretty much put an end to their keeping of orcas, mainly due a death that was caused by a single whale. First came the banning of waterworks which made absolutely no sense as Tilikum wasn't even conducting waterworks with Dawn when she was killed. A breeding ban followed this. Seaworld actually planned to expand their habitats and build a project called 'Blue World'. This would've been a marvel to see but the activists put a stop to this too. Seaworld saw no point in expanding their facilities if these orcas were to be their last.

 

[Mai Thai]

The decisions was ultimately due to blackfish and all the pressure from activists and the general public; they had to make a change to sort of get back in the public's good books. Seaworld managed to stop the bill going through in Florida, which dosen't necessarily show they want to continue breeding them, but would rather leave the door open so they can if they decide to in the future. Although I see it highly unlikely, there's still a small chance that they might go back once all the blackfish hype dies down.

It's utterly such a shame as Seaworld has had to pretty much put an end to their keeping of orcas, mainly due a death that was caused by a single whale. First came the banning of waterworks which made absolutely no sense as Tilikum wasn't even conducting waterworks with Dawn when she was killed. A breeding ban followed this. Seaworld actually planned to expand their habitats and build a project called 'Blue World'. This would've been a marvel to see but the activists put a stop to this too. Seaworld saw no point in expanding their facilities if these orcas were to be their last.

I completely agree. Animal right activists say they are doing what is best for the animals but they are actually harming them more than helping. PETA continues complain that the orcas do not have enough space but they are literally the reason for the cancellation of a project to give the orcas more space! Also they say that the orcas live in unnatural social groups when orcas in the wild live in muti-generaltional pods which Sea World did have until you forced them to stop breeding their orcas! Waterworks were actually a great form of exercise for the orcas and even the people that worked to free Keiko taught him waterworks to get him in better shape. Just think about all that money they are putting in to free the SeaWorld whales which could be used to save the wild whales from extinction. Overall, these so called activists have actually hurt the orcas more than they have helped them.

 

[Great Argus]

Animal right activists say they are doing what is best for the animals but they are actually harming them more than helping.

The multiple orcas they've killed during their so-called rewilding attempts are well enough to prove they don't care. Their kill shelters are another. They do all kinds of horrible things in the name of "helping animals."

 

[Mr.Ivory]

The multiple orcas they've killed during their so-called rewilding attempts are well enough to prove they don't care. Their kill shelters are another. They do all kinds of horrible things in the name of "helping animals."

And lets not forget that they "humanly euthanize" animals that are perfectly healthy

 

[Great Argus]

And lets forget that they "humanly euthanize" animals that are perfectly healthy

I assume you meant "not forget"

 

[Jambo]

The multiple orcas they've killed during their so-called rewilding attempts are well enough to prove they don't care. Their kill shelters are another. They do all kinds of horrible things in the name of "helping animals."

Keiko was a lost cause right at the start, and I think they should realise that releasing captive Orcas back into the wild is the completely wrong idea. These animals have grown solely reliant on humans, for food, care and companionship. Without humans, as evident with Keiko, he had nowhere to go. He never found a pod to live with, and although he 'apparently' learnt to catch fish there was no evidence he actually ever did. In the end, Keiko died due to pneumonia likely caused by the harsh winter he had to go through. And the key thing is he was by himself. It's an utter disgrace really and they should've learnt that this cannot be done with a captive Orca again; let alone those at Seaworld today who are mostly captive born orcas who have never seen a life outside of Seaworld.

 

[Mr.Ivory]

I assume you meant "not forget"

Oh thank you I didn't see my mistake till now

 

[Jambo]

I completely agree. Animal right activists say they are doing what is best for the animals but they are actually harming them more than helping. PETA continues complain that the orcas do not have enough space but they are literally the reason for the cancellation of a project to give the orcas more space! Also they say that the orcas live in unnatural social groups when orcas in the wild live in muti-generaltional pods which Sea World did have until you forced them to stop breeding their orcas! Waterworks were actually a great form of exercise for the orcas and even the people that worked to free Keiko taught him waterworks to get him in better shape. Just think about all that money they are putting in to free the SeaWorld whales which could be used to save the wild whales from extinction. Overall, these so called activists have actually hurt the orcas more than they have helped them.

It makes generally no sense what the activists are 'trying to do'. It's not helping the orcas. They've stopped the expansion of their enclosures- where's the good in that? Breeding is something natural and orcas are actually a species that are known to also do it for enjoyment. Stopping waterworks was quite a decision in itself. Waterworks is not only great exercise for them, but also helps strengthen the bond with trainers and also gives the whales something fun to do. Unfortunately, the activists are taking more away from the orcas, rather than benefiting them.

 

[Great Argus]

It makes generally no sense what the activists are 'trying to do'. It's not helping the orcas. They've stopped the expansion of their enclosures- where's the good in that? Breeding is something natural and orcas are actually a species that are known to also do it for enjoyment. Stopping waterworks was quite a decision in itself. Waterworks is not only great exercise for them, but also helps strengthen the bond with trainers and also gives the whales something fun to do. They're taking more away from the orcas, rather than benefiting them.

You're forgetting they only care about their agenda. If the animals are suffering its only fuel to their cause. Their actions show they don't care about the animal's quality of life, they just want their agenda of orcas out of human hands accomplished.

 

[Jambo]

You're forgetting they only care about their agenda. If the animals are suffering its only fuel to their cause. Their actions show they don't care about the animal's quality of life, they just want their agenda of orcas out of human hands accomplished.

I rather agree. Their actions only contradict their supposed intentions. They want the orcas to have a better life yet they're doing all but give them one. There's no way Seaworld are gonna let their orcas go into sanctuary's ect, so why not just let Seaworld try give them a better life in captivity?

 

[Zoofan15]

Keiko was a lost cause right at the start, and I think they should realise that releasing captive Orcas back into the wild is the completely wrong idea. These animals have grown solely reliant on humans, for food, care and companionship. Without humans, as evident with Keiko, he had nowhere to go. He never found a pod to live with, and although he 'apparently' learnt to catch fish there was no evidence he actually ever did. In the end, Keiko died due to pneumonia likely caused by the harsh winter he had to go through. And the key thing is he was by himself. It's an utter disgrace really and they should've learnt that this cannot be done with a captive Orca again; let alone those at Seaworld today who are mostly captive born orcas who have never seen a life outside of Seaworld.

The significance of a pod to the survival of an Orca cannot be underestimated. Studies have proven a bull Orca is 3-14 times (depending on their age) more likely to die in the year following their mother’s death. It’s a lifelong relationship (and believed to be the purpose of cows having a reasonable post reproductive life).

And note, these bulls that apparently suffer from the consequences of their mother’s death are bulls that have lived their life in the wild and know how to find food etc. A captive bull would be even more vulnerable.

Killer Whales Are "Momma's Boys": Why Middle-Aged Male Whales Are 14 Times More Likely to Die if Mom's Not There

 

[IndianRhino]

I rather agree. Their actions only contradict their supposed intentions. They want the orcas to have a better life yet they're doing all but give them one. There's no way Seaworld are gonna let their orcas go into sanctuary's ect, so why not just let Seaworld try give them a better life in captivity?

Do they really want the orcas to have a better life or do they just want to make it seem like they care so much so that they can gain a bunch of support from the general public? Groups like PETA are infuriating sometimes and I've always been very disappointed with Seaworld's decision to end breeding because of them.

Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of waterworks because it's such an unnatural thing to do. You wouldn't see a keeper performing with a tiger or a lion at a (good/ethical) zoo, would you?
I feel like it really shouldn't be a thing with dolphins or other cetaceans either. Shows like these are a thing of the past and I don't think they should make a comeback for any species. However, shows like OE at SWSD are perfectly fine in my eyes and are what aquariums should strive to have. They showcase more natural behaviors (without any humans in the water) and give various facts about the species but still manage to interest the public enough.

While OE is probably the best way to showcase these animals, SWSA and SWO's shows are also perfectly fine and are most likely more engaging for the public. Back when I used to visit SWSD more often, before the switch to OE, I'd love to watch the animals perform and listen to the songs in the One Ocean show. They're very catchy (I, especially, loved one of the songs called "Frolic" from OO ) and are likely to engage the audience more. However, the downside to One Ocean was that guests learned very few to no facts about the animals which is not the way to go, imo.

SWSA and SWO both ended One Ocean shows like SWSD but their new shows are not as educational and *formal* as SWSD's. They've managed to add many facts and tidbits of info into the presentation but have retained the musical and "showy" aspect of One Ocean, unlike SWSD.

Long story short, I think the current shows are all much better than Believe (the show with waterworks) with OE being slightly better than the other two due to its more educational focus. They all provide the necessary exercise for the orcas in the most natural way possible in a captive environment.

 

[Great Argus]

There's no way Seaworld are gonna let their orcas go into sanctuary's

Kinda actually has to be a sanctuary before they could even go to it, no?
Or we could always send them to China and Russia y'know. Who are still pulling from the wild when SeaWorld hasn't in many years. But of course, you'd have to actually care about the whales to admit that.