Captive Orca Population

Status
Not open for further replies.
Do they really want the orcas to have a better life or do they just want to make it seem like they care so much so that they can gain a bunch of support from the general public? Groups like PETA are infuriating sometimes and I've always been very disappointed with Seaworld's decision to end breeding because of them.

Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of waterworks because it's such an unnatural thing to do. You wouldn't see a keeper performing with a tiger or a lion at a (good/ethical) zoo, would you? :p
I feel like it really shouldn't be a thing with dolphins or other cetaceans either. Shows like these are a thing of the past and I don't think they should make a comeback for any species. However, shows like OE at SWSD are perfectly fine in my eyes and are what aquariums should strive to have. They showcase more natural behaviors (without any humans in the water) and give various facts about the species but still manage to interest the public enough.

While OE is probably the best way to showcase these animals, SWSA and SWO's shows are also perfectly fine and are most likely more engaging for the public. Back when I used to visit SWSD more often, before the switch to OE, I'd love to watch the animals perform and listen to the songs in the One Ocean show. They're very catchy (I, especially, loved one of the songs called "Frolic" from OO :p) and are likely to engage the audience more. However, the downside to One Ocean was that guests learned very few to no facts about the animals which is not the way to go, imo.

SWSA and SWO both ended One Ocean shows like SWSD but their new shows are not as educational and *formal* as SWSD's. They've managed to add many facts and tidbits of info into the presentation but have retained the musical and "showy" aspect of One Ocean, unlike SWSD.

Long story short, I think the current shows are all much better than Believe (the show with waterworks) with OE being slightly better than the other two due to its more educational focus. They all provide the necessary exercise for the orcas in the most natural way possible in a captive environment.

I too am very disappointed Seaworld decided to end breeding them because of those activists. They have their reasons though, their revenue was dropping following Blackfish and they really had to make a change to get back in the Public's good books. I would be quite shocked if one visitor didn't go to Seaworld and not see the Orcas! They're quite a must see, and I was suprised to know a lot of people, spend hours watching them time to time. It's quite magnificent to see an Orca gliding past, and most people would be more inclined to help wild marine life after seeing an Orca so up close compared to a turtle or even a dolphin.

Waterworks definitely had something magical about it; and although it was unnatural, it had its benefits. Seaworld still conducts 'waterwork sessions' where they get into the water with their whales, but with a gate separating them. Mostly just for training purposes and also giving the orcas something different and interesting to do as they interact with the trainer through the gate.

One Ocean is still probably my favourite show.:p The songs were incredibly catchy, and it definitely engaged the audience more. It was created as a show to replace Believe, as they could no longer do waterworks and believe centered around such activity; and I personally think they did a great job replacing Believe and making up for waterworks which was the main attraction.

Orca Encounter at Seaworld San Diego is very factual, and do involve many naturalistic behaviours, although personally it does get quite boring once you watch it time and time again, as the same facts played and even predictable behaviours, to match specific parts of the show. I much prefer the 'Inside Look' show at Seaworld San Diego which is mainly a training session where you are given the chance to learn more about the Orcas themselves and their personalities ect.

What San Antonio and Orlando have done has been quite a success, although I would've liked them to have kept some of the One Ocean songs. :p They are showy like One Ocean, but also at the same time factual like Orca Encounter. I think this is done more nicely, and is much more interesting to watch compared to Orca Encounter. Seaworld has done a nice job so far imo with their replacement shows following One Ocean. Much more factual, which is great, and something all aquariums and marine parks should involve.
 
Kinda actually has to be a sanctuary before they could even go to it, no? ;)
Or we could always send them to China and Russia y'know. Who are still pulling from the wild when SeaWorld hasn't in many years. But of course, you'd have to actually care about the whales to admit that. :rolleyes:

The plan is to create a sanctuary, although the activists aren't likely to build one unless they know animals will be living in it. :p

Idk if Seaworld will send their Orcas overseas. It's a decent idea though if they decide to get rid of all their orcas in general. Seaworld much rather do this rather than hand them over to the activists. :confused:
 
Idk if Seaworld will send their Orcas overseas. It's a decent idea though if they decide to get rid of all their orcas in general. Seaworld much rather do this rather than hand them over to the activists.

I'm being sarcastic on that point. :p
 
I'm being sarcastic on that point. :p

Got it.:p Russia and China are still pulling Orcas out of the ocean which is something Seaworld hasn't done in 40 years. Alongside this, they're also breeding them too. The activists should maybe look into that:rolleyes:
 
Got it.:p Russia and China are still pulling Orcas out of the ocean which is something Seaworld hasn't done in 40 years. Alongside this, they're also breeding them too. The activists should maybe look into that:rolleyes:

Now you're following my point! ;)
 
Update on Lolita: Lolita will receive a medical examination from a third party vet; hopefully a positive step forward to moving her to a better home.
 
News Updates (22/04/2022):

Some of this news isn't recent, but I thought some may be interested.

Suma Aqaulife Park has announced their opening date for their proposed Orca complex has been pushed back to Spring of 2024. They have released new concept art of the orca exhibit showing a slightly different design as well as an underwater viewing area where guests will be able to dine by the whales. They plan to work with Sea World Kangowa with breeding their whales, most likely through artificial insemination.

Cookie's calf has been confirmed in a way, but not directly from Shanghai Haichang. Photos have emerged of the calf, which has been nicknamed 'Chip' by the cetacean community. From photos and recent merchandise, the calf appears to be a male. The calf is currently being raised in the medical pool due to issues with Cookie not being able to raise the calf and produce the adequate amount of milk for it.

A link for an Instagram video of the calf for anyone interested: Login • Instagram

Also, the causes of deaths have been announced for all three orcas that died last year.
  • Ula's cause of death was reported to be intestinal torsion.
  • Amaya's cause of death was reported to be gastro-intestinal disease.
  • Skyla's cause of death was reported to be gastric torsion, that led to septicemia
Quite surprising, as all three causes of deaths were rather similar in a way.
 
Here's some photos of 'Chip':

https://www.instagram.com/p/CeQLfg0OYjZ/

His official name will be announced on June 16, and he'll be going on public display for the first time on June 3. He looks to be quite a normal, healthy baby whale!

It's been confirmed!

To commemorate Children's Day, Shanghai Haichang Ocean Park has finally announced the birth of an orca. The male calf was born on September 10, 2021, at 1:16 am (Beijing Time). He was born to first time parents Cookie & Fattiger (aka Dillon). Unfortunately, the calf had to be hand-raised by staff almost immediately after he was born. Cookie, his mother, failed to nurse & bond with him properly.

At birth he weighed about 233 kilograms & measured 2.5 meters long. After almost nine months, the calf now weighs about 411 kilograms & measures 3 meters long. The calf is described as healthy and spends everyday with his trainers enjoying enrichment activities. The park is holding a contest on WeChat where users can submit name ideas for the calf. The winning name will be announced on June 16th.


https://www.instagram.com/p/CeRzPX0KsTX/
 
It's been confirmed!

To commemorate Children's Day, Shanghai Haichang Ocean Park has finally announced the birth of an orca. The male calf was born on September 10, 2021, at 1:16 am (Beijing Time). He was born to first time parents Cookie & Fattiger (aka Dillon). Unfortunately, the calf had to be hand-raised by staff almost immediately after he was born. Cookie, his mother, failed to nurse & bond with him properly.

At birth he weighed about 233 kilograms & measured 2.5 meters long. After almost nine months, the calf now weighs about 411 kilograms & measures 3 meters long. The calf is described as healthy and spends everyday with his trainers enjoying enrichment activities. The park is holding a contest on WeChat where users can submit name ideas for the calf. The winning name will be announced on June 16th.


Login • Instagram
It’s not true that they failed to bond inherently wild is anti page! This is what Shanghai Haichang Ocean Park said in Weibo.
here is 2 pictures and one have the translation from Chinese to English you have to zoom in to read the text.
In the second image they are swimming together. She only failed to nurse him! But she bonded with him very well! Also she is the oldest female not the youngest female! The ID is right but the ages got mixed up.
ADB7C57A-FAA9-4BAD-A113-F452E3DED088.jpeg2BC65A9D-9AA9-4A42-A2DB-FFAA6AAC1992.png
Text also posted by the park says that Cookie is the oldest female.
9968EEC2-25A7-4AD9-86F7-A12B721D7361.png
 

Attachments

  • ADB7C57A-FAA9-4BAD-A113-F452E3DED088.jpeg
    ADB7C57A-FAA9-4BAD-A113-F452E3DED088.jpeg
    26.5 KB · Views: 54
  • 2BC65A9D-9AA9-4A42-A2DB-FFAA6AAC1992.png
    2BC65A9D-9AA9-4A42-A2DB-FFAA6AAC1992.png
    244.5 KB · Views: 54
  • 9968EEC2-25A7-4AD9-86F7-A12B721D7361.png
    9968EEC2-25A7-4AD9-86F7-A12B721D7361.png
    247.8 KB · Views: 56
Last edited:
Yea his name is officially Nong Hao! View attachment 552940

Great news! He's officially nine months old now. It'll be interesting to see who he'll be displayed with. So far I believe he's only been grouped with his mother, although it's possible he's met Sean too.

It’s not true that they failed to bond inherently wild is anti page! This is what Shanghai Haichang Ocean Park said in Weibo.
here is 2 pictures and one have the translation from Chinese to English you have to zoom in to read the text.
In the second image they are swimming together. She only failed to nurse him! But she bonded with him very well! Also she is the oldest female not the youngest female! The ID is right but the ages got mixed up.
View attachment 552986View attachment 552988
Text also posted by the park says that Cookie is the oldest female.
View attachment 552989

Cookie's the first case i've heard of, of a wildborn female not being able to nurse her calf. Hopefully this is only because she's still rather young and this was her first birth, instead of an actual medical issue.

One of the females is eleven the other is ten. Dora is the smallest female but apparently was the oldest. It would make sense though if Cookie, who i always thought to be quite a large female was actually the oldest.
 
Great news! He's officially nine months old now. It'll be interesting to see who he'll be displayed with. So far I believe he's only been grouped with his mother, although it's possible he's met Sean too.



Cookie's the first case i've heard of, of a wildborn female not being able to nurse her calf. Hopefully this is only because she's still rather young and this was her first birth, instead of an actual medical issue.

One of the females is eleven the other is ten. Dora is the smallest female but apparently was the oldest. It would make sense though if Cookie, who i always thought to be quite a large female was actually the oldest.

Not true Morgan is also from the wild she was rescued and she didn’t produced milk for Ula… and they had to separate them to hand raise Ula. in Morgan’s case she didn’t produce milk at all. In Cookie’s case she produced but very small quantities.

Regarding Cookie’s age she is the matriarch and the oldest like the image I posted says. Cookie is the bigger one she is 13 years old actually and Dora is 11 years old and the smaller female. 43589FFD-544E-4D93-BB96-6F2EFBB37903.jpeg
Here you can see Cookie is the bigger one.
Yes i think too that so far he is with his mom and actually Dora i read that Cookie’s reaction when they tríed to introduce the males (it doesnt say which male but i guess its Sean) Her (Cookie) reaction was to protect him even tho the male wasnt doing nothing to him from the description but since she is the matriarch and have a bond with her baby they decided to take it slow and not pressure things.
 

Attachments

  • 43589FFD-544E-4D93-BB96-6F2EFBB37903.jpeg
    43589FFD-544E-4D93-BB96-6F2EFBB37903.jpeg
    108.1 KB · Views: 54
Last edited:
Not true Morgan is also from the wild she was rescued and she didn’t produced milk for Ula… and they had to separate them to hand raise Ula. in Morgan’s case she didn’t produce milk at all. In Cookie’s case she produced but very small quantities.

Regarding Cookie’s age she is the matriarch and the oldest like the image I posted says. Cookie is the bigger one she is 13 years old actually and Dora is 11 years old and the smaller female. View attachment 553132
Here you can see Cookie is the bigger one.
Yes i think too that so far he is with his mom and actually Dora i read that Cookie’s reaction when they tríed to introduce the males (it doesnt say which male but i guess its Sean) Her (Cookie) reaction was to protect him even tho the male wasnt doing nothing to him from the description but since she is the matriarch and have a bond with her baby they decided to take it slow and not pressure things.

Cookie was 3-5 years of age at the time of her capture in 2015. That places her date of birth to be between 2010-2012. 13 years is a little too old. She should be around 10-12. Dora being 11 makes sense though, as she was of similar age to Cookie at the time of their capture.

I believe Nong Hao was introduced to Sean for companionship whilst Nong Hao was still young, when he wasn’t in with his mother and the other two. He’s been spending more time with his mother now that he’s been put on public display. It would’ve made sense to group Sean and Nong Hao together before as both rarely preformed. I believe Sean had/has issues with the girls and Dillon.
 
Cookie was 3-5 years of age at the time of her capture in 2015. That places her date of birth to be between 2010-2012. 13 years is a little too old. She should be around 10-12. Dora being 11 makes sense though, as she was of similar age to Cookie at the time of their capture.

I believe Nong Hao was introduced to Sean for companionship whilst Nong Hao was still young, when he wasn’t in with his mother and the other two. He’s been spending more time with his mother now that he’s been put on public display. It would’ve made sense to group Sean and Nong Hao together before as both rarely preformed. I believe Sean had/has issues with the girls and Dillon.
Nope i saw and translated an interview where they said he spends time with his mom as she refused to act just to be with him. That tells you there is a BOND! They vocalize to each other! Yes Sean has his issues with the others but they didnt introduce the calf to the males as Cookie gets very protective of him. And about Cookie’s age she was 12 when she gave birth. She was 5 years old when captured. She is the matriarch and she wouldnt allow it… She and Dora spends time with him also because Dora is looking very pregnant. They probably want Dora to see what’s a strong bond like and the males are rough so its better that Hao its with his mom and Dora. Which was posted by the park in Weibo lol.
Dora was 3 years old when captured the park stated that Cookie is the oldest female. She is very dominant. If they introduced Hao to the males without Cookie been there the males easily could kill him even while ‘playing’ thats why under human care the males are kept away from the calves until they are like a year old.
This picture was posted in Weibo on june 15
123F7B77-0310-4933-A9D5-E7C6F9388E25.png
 

Attachments

  • 123F7B77-0310-4933-A9D5-E7C6F9388E25.png
    123F7B77-0310-4933-A9D5-E7C6F9388E25.png
    184.6 KB · Views: 55
Last edited:
About most captive males not being introduced to calves until they’re a year old because they’re too rough, that is…absolutely not true. In a healthy and well established pod with socially competent whales, bulls should be able to be introduced to the calves from a very young age, if not directly after birth. For instance, with the last two seaworld calves, Kyara was introduced to her sire at less than three months of age, and Amaya’s 15 year old brother was present for her birth (as well as grouped with her regularly from a young age). Bingo at Nagoya was present for the births of a number of his daughters, and Oscar was present for the birth of and housed with his son until the mature cows of the pod started to ostracize him from the social grouping.

The majority of issues with males being rough/sexually inappropriate with young calves is unfortunately an artifact of being in captivity (and more specifically how they are usually brought into captivity as well). Considering the majority of founder animals were brought in between the ages of three and six years old, they did not have time to learn fully appropriate social skills from their pods in the wild. Some animals pick them up better with time, experience, and maturity, but others did not. Plus as a fundamental aspect of being in a confined space, males simply cannot separate from the calves and cows as much as if they were in the wild, which can allow harassment from either the females to the male, or from the male to the calf if the females are not suitably protective over the baby.

Don’t get me wrong, I fully support work is being underhuman care, but there are fundamentally several aspects to the manager that I believe are still not being fully and properly addressed. Realistically, the future for them in captivity is in China and Japan, where unfortunately the emphasis seems to be placed on merely maintaining the animals for performance/display and not modernizing their husband treat beyond what is already existing. While what’s currently happening is working, it’s sad to see that further emphasis isn’t being placed on expanding habitats and really focussing strongly on building strong socially competent, matriarchal pods of animals.
 
Chimelong will be the biggest ever they got 9 pools! 5 big, 2 med pools and 2 medium one…

They are trying to AI Lara and they had issues to AI her same with Ran they are/were having issues to get her pregnant. They even tried for her to breed with Oscar and nope she wanted nothing to do with him. That was when he was alive.

When they announced that KSW will send 2 female orcas to Suma they inmediatly began letting Ran pass a lot of time with Luna in the back pools and send her to do the shows together to the point that Luna now nurses from Ran! Since October/November Ran is showing pregnancy signs…

That's seems to be quite a giant complex! Can't wait for it to come to fruition.

I thought so. Lara has had some sort of issues breeding thus far.

That's interesting re. Ran and Luna being grouped together. Luna has always been very close with Lovey and Lara, but never Ran. So you think Ran may be pregnant? Any sources? If she is, she could be due later this year..
 
The park doesnt say nothing about it.
C161BC67-6050-4CAF-9383-E178ECE6BA98.jpeg
917175AC-942C-4505-80FD-2745CE1BFDC3.png

Luna nursing from Ran and Lara looking at Lovey’s belly! Ever since they began letting Ran pass time with Luna.. Lovey has become more “aggressive” with Ran.
 

Attachments

  • C161BC67-6050-4CAF-9383-E178ECE6BA98.jpeg
    C161BC67-6050-4CAF-9383-E178ECE6BA98.jpeg
    45 KB · Views: 56
  • 917175AC-942C-4505-80FD-2745CE1BFDC3.png
    917175AC-942C-4505-80FD-2745CE1BFDC3.png
    270.1 KB · Views: 56
About most captive males not being introduced to calves until they’re a year old because they’re too rough, that is…absolutely not true. In a healthy and well established pod with socially competent whales, bulls should be able to be introduced to the calves from a very young age, if not directly after birth. For instance, with the last two seaworld calves, Kyara was introduced to her sire at less than three months of age, and Amaya’s 15 year old brother was present for her birth (as well as grouped with her regularly from a young age). Bingo at Nagoya was present for the births of a number of his daughters, and Oscar was present for the birth of and housed with his son until the mature cows of the pod started to ostracize him from the social grouping.

The majority of issues with males being rough/sexually inappropriate with young calves is unfortunately an artifact of being in captivity (and more specifically how they are usually brought into captivity as well). Considering the majority of founder animals were brought in between the ages of three and six years old, they did not have time to learn fully appropriate social skills from their pods in the wild. Some animals pick them up better with time, experience, and maturity, but others did not. Plus as a fundamental aspect of being in a confined space, males simply cannot separate from the calves and cows as much as if they were in the wild, which can allow harassment from either the females to the male, or from the male to the calf if the females are not suitably protective over the baby.

Don’t get me wrong, I fully support work is being underhuman care, but there are fundamentally several aspects to the manager that I believe are still not being fully and properly addressed. Realistically, the future for them in captivity is in China and Japan, where unfortunately the emphasis seems to be placed on merely maintaining the animals for performance/display and not modernizing their husband treat beyond what is already existing. While what’s currently happening is working, it’s sad to see that further emphasis isn’t being placed on expanding habitats and really focussing strongly on building strong socially competent, matriarchal pods of animals.
They are doing awesome with the orcas actually China is doing way better they learned very fast that orcas need space! In the other hand Japan only got Nagoya that is big.
instead in China there is Shanghai with a show Pool of 140 ft long. And still they decided in October 2021 that they are expanding and are building a bigger and better orca habitat in land across the entrance of the park.
Chimelong 190 ft long show Pool (from what i read but this Measure isn’t confirmed) of course they have 4 other big back pools of the same length…. and 2 medium sized pools and 2 med pools.
Wuxi decided that what they builded is too small (120 ft long the show Pool ) for orcas so now they will start all over again in ZhouShan city to build a 205 ft show Pool and back pools i dont know the size and move their orcas there! It will take longer yeah but that tells you they arent thinking in only keeping the animals they even add enrichment to their orcas habitat it isnt only the show and the money. They learned that the bigger the pools the better! They are looking at AZA requirements for the Pool sizes!
what Japan isnt doing… Suma will be only sligthly bigger than KSW and that’s because they will have 2 back pools instead of 1. And a med pool.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top