Wales Ape & Monkey Sanctuary Cefn-yr-Erw Primate Sanctuary

[Bele]

As easytigger says , there were 3 groups of sooty mangabeys at Penscynor in the 1990's including the London animals , a male from Manor House WP , a male from Chicago Brookfield and an ex-pet male and quite a few bred there , about 15 or so in total .

When the Park re-opened for its final season , with a sadly much smaller collection , all the mangabeys had gone . I still do not know where .

 

[GorillaFollower]

I cut my zoological teeth at penscynor as a trainee keeper from 92-94, I didn't have much to do with the chimps but remember them all fondly.

Neusi was a character, quite nervous, sometimes hugging piles of straw, and she used to stick her tongue out and wiggling it from side to side and sometimes blowing raspberries to get attention.

I think given the dynamics of the group being with so many hand reared chimps and in penscynors erm dated.... facilities she did remarkably well.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I did meet a very helpful chap at Penscynor but I don't think it could have been you as it was around 1998.

Thanks for the memories about Neusi, yes she did the same at London, her and Kumi whom she was in the hand reared group with often would hug piles of straw, I guess this was their comfort. Neusi was a bit older than Kumi and Joema so was a little bit 'above' their 'foolish' ways but she was such a character and was very graceful with a lovely face. It is so good to hear news of her a little bit older and very sad really about her demise.

I would very much like to find out about Vicki who was such a character at Dublin Zoo, she could be very forceful!! She did love to put socks on her hands and loved looking at my make up!! So any news from anyone would be fantastic.

Thanks again,

Sandra

 

[easytigger]

I'd be very interested to know. They seem to have disappeared after Penscynor apart from possibly one pair. Was there an old pair called 'Ramrod' & 'Ginger' among them do you know?

Ramrod and Ginger we're at Penscynor when I left but had been at Manor house in tenby before then, along with mischa they formed a trio in one of the smaller enclosures at penscynor.

All the Penscynor breed mangabeys had herb and spice names if that helps in tracking them down.

 

[Pertinax]

mystery of the Mangabeys.

As easytigger says , there were 3 groups of sooty mangabeys at Penscynor in the 1990's including the London animals , a male from Manor House WP , a male from Chicago Brookfield and an ex-pet male and quite a few bred there , about 15 or so in total .

When the Park re-opened for its final season , with a sadly much smaller collection , all the mangabeys had gone . I still do not know where .

It is very strange. a large number yet apart from maybe the Newquay pair, they all seemed to just vanish. I know of no Sooty Mangabeys now in any English zoos anywhere.

 

[Bele]

I checked out the Irish Monkey sanctuary site , no mention of them having any mangabeys . I do not see how that many unusual monkeys can just disappear . I hope their outcome was not a bullet , which was threatened for the chimps before Cefn-yr-Erw took them and the gibbons .

 

[Pertinax]

I checked out the Irish Monkey sanctuary site , no mention of them having any mangabeys . I do not see how that many unusual monkeys can just disappear . I hope their outcome was not a bullet

So do I, especially as they were the only successful breeding group of a species not represented anywhere else in the UK at the time. Unfortunately this wasn't a 'trendy' species then and I feel its rather unlikely there would have been any demand from abroad either though its possible. So maybe they really did have a problem placing them. But if so, why didn't the Welsh SAnctuary take them along with the CHimpanzees etc which would be the expected outcome ?

My guess is the old pair that went to Ireland may well be dead by now.

 

[Clawedtoad]

I very much doubt that they make any money . It is not marketed as a visitor attraction in any big way .

Cefn-yr-erw is definitely marketing themselves as a visitor attraction. They have a b&b and restaurant.
Nearby attractions include Dan-yr-ogof national showcaves,
If they struggle financially, it's probably because many people visit it once, see a hodge podge collection of animals and enclosures without clear signs or descriptions, and don't feel the urge to go back.

I'm a bit confused as to how Cefn-yr-erw is a sanctuary. Sorry to sound ignorant, but can someone tell me the difference between a zoo and a sanctuary?

 

[Pertinax]

It is a slightly mysterious place. More a local tourist attraction than a zoo perhaps. One wonders what the visitors come away thinking about it- good, bad or indifferent?

 

[Clawedtoad]

I read a while back in the papers about RSPCA removing 30 or 40 'rescued' cats from an old lady's house and slapping her for animal cruelty. Why aren't the same rules applied for rescuing too many animals in places like Cefn yr Erw? Are they immune to RSPCA or BIAZA regulations? Or are there generally no regulations for how many animals a zoo/sanctuary is allowed to house? If they are inspected regularly like any other zoos, how can they get away with such small enclosures for their primates? They are making money from donations and supporters while perpetuating a potentially dangerous practice. Home Office regulation for housing animals in research (sorry to make this comparison) seems much more strict and scrutinised.

 

[Pertinax]

Why aren't the same rules applied for rescuing too many animals in places like Cefn yr Erw? Are they immune to RSPCA or BIAZA regulations?

One reason I can think of is the problem of what to do with all these unfortunates if an organisation became involved. They would be duty bound to take action and due to the improbability of being able to rehome these unwanted primates elsewhere, the only option could be euthanasia in many cases- which if it became public, as it certainly would, would generate bad press against the organisation concerned.

If the animals are well cared for, despite living in less than ideal surroundings, there may be no immediate solution available. So the societies may simply turn a blind eye to the situation.

With domestic cats and dogs, welfare societies are on familiar ground, having their own facilities for temporary housing/rehoming or low profile euthanasia.

 

[Clawedtoad]

One reason I can think of is the problem of what to do with all these unfortunates if an organisation became involved. They would be duty bound to take action and due to the improbability of being able to rehome these unwanted primates elsewhere, the only option could be euthanasia in many cases- which if it became public, as it certainly would, would generate bad press against the organisation concerned.

If the animals are well cared for, despite living in less than ideal surroundings, there may be no immediate solution available. So the societies may simply turn a blind eye to the situation.

That is a fair argument. But if Cefn-yr-Erw wants to rescue animals, and not be a temporary holding place, perhaps they should focus just on unwanted ones in the UK since they have limited space and funds. Or spend some time to improve their existing enclosures before rescuing more. It doesn't make practical sense for them to rescue wolf cubs from Serbia or chimps from Europe. Regarding chimps, several are coming out of quarantine and need enclosures built. On top of this, they plan to rescue two more chimps from Mole Hall (clearly this was not necessary since these chimps could have gone to Mona in Spain). Chimps live well into their 50's, so that's many many more years of upkeeping, enrichment, etc., relying on donations. Animal care and health will undoubtedly be compromised as result of excessive rescue, compounded by a low income stream. The harsh reality for Cefn-yr-erw is that, despite having good intentions, they ultimately could fail in the long run as a sustainable facility. They need to be aware of and accept the facts and concerns.

 

[Pertinax]

The harsh reality for Cefn-yr-erw is that, despite having good intentions, they ultimately could fail in the long run as a sustainable facility.

I do agree that it does sound as if they are overreaching themselves rather. The desire to 'rescue' some of these animals seems to outweigh the reality of whether they can accomodate them properly longterm.

Many smaller animal collections over the years have suffered a similar problem, a refusal to see that there is anything wrong with the conditions their animals are kept in.

 

[Clawedtoad]

Many smaller animal collections over the years have suffered a similar problem, a refusal to see that there is anything wrong with the conditions their animals are kept in.

Places like Cefn-yr-Erw can not think it's above the law. There needs to be stricter guidelines.

 

[Arachnerd]

I'm a bit confused as to how Cefn-yr-erw is a sanctuary. Sorry to sound ignorant, but can someone tell me the difference between a zoo and a sanctuary?

A zoo is defined in the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 as being 'an establishment where wild animals are kept for exhibition ... to which members of the public have access, with or without charge for admission, on more than seven days in any period of twelve consecutive months'.

So Cefn-yr-erw is clearly a zoo. They can however call themselves a sanctuary if they wish.

At the moment anyone can call themselves a sanctuary. There are undoubtedly some sanctuaries out there that do a wonderful job, but like anything there are some awful ones. I personally know of one group who raise money for their 'sanctuary' by giving (ill informed) talks and handling sessions to the public. However the majority of their 'rescued animals' have been purchased from the local pet shop!

There has been moves for all sanctuaries to be licenced but so far this hasn't happened.
If any sanctuary is keeping wild animals and is open to the public for more than 7 days they must have a zoo licence.
If they are not open to the public they may have to apply for a Dangerous Wild Animals Licence depending on the species they house.

 

[Arachnerd]

Are they immune to RSPCA or BIAZA regulations? QUOTE]

The problem with BIAZA regulations is that you only have to abide by them if you are a BIAZA member.

 

[Bele]

Interesting comments this week . As I said before I do not want to get involved in the politics of this . Just a couple of points from my visit last week . No chimps are in temporary accommodation , all groups have reasonable outside cages with deep litter flooring . The only monkeys indoors in quarantine are the two male black mangabeys . A new enclosure was being built which I assume was for them .

I do not agree with the 'rescue' of wolf cubs from Europe but can accept that they could prove to be a draw to bring in more people . They already run 'meet the wolf' sessions with their 2 hybrids .

I have seen monkeys and chimps getting a far worse deal in 'conventional' zoos than the animals at Cefn-yr-Erw .

Personally I would NEVER EVER involve the RSPCA in anything to do with the keeping of non-domestic species as , in my opinion , they do not have expertise in this area .

 

[Johnny Morris.]

Well said Bele.

There seems to have been a lot of criticism of Cefn yr erw, from people who haven't even visited. I've been and in my opinion it isn't anywhere near as bad as it's being painted in this thread.

 

[johnstoni]

They have done a good job in their chimpanzee rescue work, no-one is disputing that, and these animals have perfectly adequate, if simple, enclosures.

The photographs of capuchin, lemur and gibbon facilities however are not a trick of the light, nor is it a case of them being bigger in real life. As someone who has worked with primates I have a basic understanding of what is acceptable for these animals, and I think the same can be said for a lot of people who have made comments on this thread.

The existence of Cefn yr erw is a good thing - but taking animals you cannot adequately house is not the way forward, no matter what you rescue them from. It leaves the sanctuary in some instances giving ex-southport animals a smaller space than when they were at the zoo.

 

[Pertinax]

They have done a good job in their chimpanzee rescue work, no-one is disputing that, and these animals have perfectly adequate, if simple, enclosures.

The photographs of capuchin, lemur and gibbon facilities however are not a trick of the light, nor is it a case of them being bigger in real life. As someone who has worked with primates I have a basic understanding of what is acceptable for these animals, and I think the same can be said for a lot of people who have made comments on this thread.

I would agree with this. As I said on another thread, good photographs of an enclosure are perfectly adequate for anyone with relevant Zoo experience on which to base their judgements and a visit is NOT necessary in that case to gain an accurate picture, although it would obviously provide a fuller understanding of the location of the establishment and the setting of the enclosure(s).

Please note I am not making a judgement here- apart from on the need or otherwise to make a visit to such a place before commenting on it..

 

[Bele]

Wales ape and monkey sanctuary

The new name of the collection formerly known as Cefn-yr-Erw - announced on their web-site .