You bring up a lot of interesting points. Most elephants are not kept in small, barren exhibits anymore. I can only think of a handful here in the United States. It does not seem many facilities are opening new dolphin exhibits though. Has anyone seen the new dolphin exhibit at the Georgia Aquarium? Having watched a video about the design of it, it looks to be a very good exhibit.
Cetacean vs. Elephant Captivity
- Thread starter BlackRhino
- Start date
You bring up a lot of interesting points. Most elephants are not kept in small, barren exhibits anymore. I can only think of a handful here in the United States. It does not seem many facilities are opening new dolphin exhibits though. Has anyone seen the new dolphin exhibit at the Georgia Aquarium? Having watched a video about the design of it, it looks to be a very good exhibit.
If they can tolerate the cold, then is it just due to high cost they don't have heated areas that will melt the ice so they can go outside more often? If they can handle the cold and could be outside I don't have a problem with elephants in the Midwest. My issue is keeping them inside in small enclosures for long periods of time.
Eh, I'm not a fan of orcas in captivity. They need too much space. Cetaceans in general? Well... My main problem with it is that most places keeping them put them in blank, concrete tanks with little to do for most of the day. I mean, if someone put some chimpanzees in a concrete enclosure with no texture or environment, and nothing to do, people would call that animal abuse. (and rightfully so) Would it kill to put some sand, kelp, and rocks in a dolphin tank? Bonus points to stick in some water jets to mimic waves and currents. Give them more of an environment to interact with, more things to do and more things to play with. Feed them plenty of live fish. But phase orcas out. I don't think it's possible to create a good, captive environment for them. Stop breeding them, and maybe send some of them to sea pens.
Elephants, I don't have so much problem with. We understand them better and it's easier to give them more room and more stimulation.
Elephants, I don't have so much problem with. We understand them better and it's easier to give them more room and more stimulation.
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I used blackfish because "Really big dolphins such as killer whales, pilot whales, melon-headed whales and false killer whales." is kinda long, and as far as I know those animals don't have a scientific grouping. So blackfish is all I have.@lamna: what about belugas?
Edit: sorry, just remembered your previous post. Why call Orcas "blackfish"? It was (and still is) difficult enough to establish in the general public that cetacea are not fish. Plesse don't undo this educational progress.
As for belugas, they seem to do okay but they are so large I wonder if they get enough space. I just don't know enough to make any firm claim either way with them.
Elephants don't have problems with cold for relatively short periods. More than once I've seen elephants (mainly younger ones) playing in snow during winter time in north European zoos and they clearly enjoyed themselves tremendously. If anything, it appears that snow sometimes can be used as a form of enrichment. Try doing a google image search or a youtube search for snow+elephant and you'll get several results too. However, being outside in below freezing temperatures appears to be limited; typically only a few hours or less a day, depending on how cold it is. I seem to remember someone telling me that for the most part the adults would be perfectly fine outside all day (except in the most extreme cold), but they can get frostbite on their thin ears and this is the main reason for the limited periods?
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All the species you mentioned are toothed whales or odontocetes. All dolphins and porpoises are included in this group as well.
I wouldn't have thought that. Maybe I need to change my opinion of zoos in northern climates keeping elephants. As long as they do get some exercise outside and aren't cramped inside maybe it's not so bad. Here's a fun video:
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Which is why I used blackfish. They are quite a bit larger than "regular" dolphins and porpoises. Also several of them are pelagic species.
Elephants can cope quite well with cold weather, there huge size means they loose heat fairly slowly. If it's above 5°C (41°F) adult elephants should be fine outside for hours.
@lamna: As Blackrhino correctly pointed out, your insistence on this misnomer doesn't make any sense at all. For one, it is a rather obscure Native American term for orcas, afaik not used for any other odontocetes. Secondly, unlike "blackfish", the terms toothed whales/odontocetes are scientifically correct, comprehensive, comprehensible and neutral. And finally-whales, no matter whether they are toothed or baleen, are not "black fish", even if ancient Native Americans mistook them as such. There are still people around who think that whales are fish; one shouldn't encourage them by deliberately using misnomers. So if you want to consider "orcas, pilot whales, melon-headed whales and false killer whales", why not use "larger toothed whales" or "larger odontocetes" instead?
As for elephants in cold weather: the major health risks, like in most other tropical zoo mammals, are the unfortunate combination of wet & cold, frostbites on larger acra (such as ears) and slipping & injuring on ice.
As for elephants in cold weather: the major health risks, like in most other tropical zoo mammals, are the unfortunate combination of wet & cold, frostbites on larger acra (such as ears) and slipping & injuring on ice.
At least it's an improvement to 'blackfish'...
No, not really, as fish usually do not sport hair and cetacea, if at all, only a few...Are "we" done being impatient and rude? If so, even better, and the peaceful discussion can continue.
Elephas Maximus
Well-Known Member
Elephants don't move in 3 dimensions as cetaceans do. So they adapt better to resrticted space of the zoo exhibit
The main issue is for marine mammals you require flipping large pools and tanks of sea water and a bloody good filtration / oxygenation system.
Dumbo did.....Elephants don't move in 3 dimensions as cetaceans do. So they adapt better to resrticted space of the zoo exhibit
Elephas Maximus
Well-Known Member
And don't forget that 'pinnipeds' (they now belong to Carnivora) can adapt and breed in far smaller pools than similarly-sized cetaceans need, while receiving exercise & enrichment successfully on the ground! They even adapt to fresh water relatively easily which is nearly impossible for any marine cetacean (though Belugas are observed into the rivers quite often, shedding skin and killing parasites in new environment).
Even though being part of the order Carnivora, the clade pinnipedia and the term pinniped are still in use. If you look at the majority oft pinniped species, relatively few have adopted well to captivity and breed more or less regularily.
As for the dimensional usage of an exhibit, cetacea are actually more capable of using the watery element to the fuller extant than the aquaphile elephants, although I do admit that their inability to use dry land is a disadvantage when only limited spaces of water are available.
As for the dimensional usage of an exhibit, cetacea are actually more capable of using the watery element to the fuller extant than the aquaphile elephants, although I do admit that their inability to use dry land is a disadvantage when only limited spaces of water are available.
No doubts that elephants need a lot of space, but the numbers that frequently seem to be quoted as one of the main arguments for not keeping them bothers me bit, as I often struggle to find independent, solid information to back them up. While I don't dispute that an elephant can walk up to 25 miles a day (and probably much longer, if it had to), it certainly doesn't appear to be the norm in the wild. Volume 2 of Handbook of the Mammals of the World (2011) provides the following numbers (where I quote other sources, they're listed in brackets):
African savanna elephant: Daily movements around 5-13 km/3-8 miles in xeric savanna ecosystem, with most moving less in the dry season. During musth, males range further, typically 10-17 km/6-10 miles a day. The famous "desert elephants" of Namibia, sometimes quoted as walking huge distances, typically range between 4-38 km/2.5-23 miles a day based on radio collar experiments (Leggett, 2009).
African forest elephant: Exact figures unknown, but limited evidence suggests a few km a day (less than African savanna elephant, which is unsurprising considering average differences in body size and food/water availability in the typical habitats).
Asian elephant: Exact figures unknown, but limited evidence suggests comparable to those mentioned above for African forest elephant.
One interesting thing that also emerges is the huge variations in home range. The African savanna elephant, by far the most studied in the wild (and the one believed to have the largest average range), have been documented with home range as large as 30,000 km2/11,500 square miles in xeric (~desert) parts of Mali, but less than 50 km2/20 square miles in mesic parts of Tanzania. Home ranges generally overlap widely. Asian elephants have been recorded with home ranges from more than 600 km2/230 square miles to 30 km2/11.5 square miles (IUCN, 2008).
In other words, daily movements and home range vary substantially and unsurprisingly appear to be largely based on availability of water and food (as also supported by several studies, e.g. Leggett, 2009; de Beer & van Aarde, 2008). In this context, a zoo far exceeds even the best natural habitat in food/water availability.
In summary, I'm definitely not suggesting zoos ever should keep elephants in small enclosures; even the smallest documented natural home range far exceeds the largest elephant enclosure (on this single parameter elephants actually aren't all that different from most other animals kept in captivity, e.g. carnivorans). Their complex social structures also make satisfactory elephant keeping particularly complicated. Indeed, I am very happy that new spacious elephant enclosures with features aimed at enrichment seem to be opening with some regularity. However, I am suggesting that claims made by certain anti-zoo groups ("elephants need to walk 10s of miles a day to live a decent life" and alike) should be taken with a grain of salt.