Chester Zoo Chester Zoo summer 2014

[Animal Friendly]

This is what is known as jumping to conclusions, taking two and two and making five the elephant which has the head-weaving issues is Thi Hi Way, who was born in a logging camp and as a result suffers from a few stereotypic behaviours - NOT Jangoli.

If you were familiar with the herd of elephants at Chester, you would know that since the arrival of the new male Aung-Bo, Jangoli has been kept separate from the herd whenever the male is mixed due to tensions between the pair - I would suggest this is a much more likely reason for finding her a new home as opposed to the motivation you assume Chester has. As Jangoli - although on the old side - is still cycling, moving her to Madrid might even permit her to breed.

My apologies, I am only a simple man of limited intelligence and very limited experience of animals, please forgive me, I unlike yourself have no experience whatsoever of hands on experience with Asian elephants and how they may feel as sentient beings, the same with your learned friend Thyanlantho or whatever he calls himself, perhaps I may have the pleasure of meeting you in person one day at one of the walk and talk experiences at Chester Zoo and you then can bestow upon me more of your life long experience of zoology, elephants in particular. I cannot wait.

 

[Maguari]

Chester have extensive experience with elephants - the first UK zoo to breed Asian Elephant, no less. If the decision to move has been made it will not have been taken lightly and will have been made in the best interests of all the elephants, Jangoli included. She was having to be kept separate from the herd when Aung Bo was with them. Clearly the zoo did not think this a good situation, particularly when she may still breed again if she was able to be peaceably mix with a male.

 

[Animal Friendly]

If the decision to move has been made it will not have been taken lightly and will have been made in the best interests of all the elephants, Jangoli included. She was having to be kept separate from the herd when Aung Bo was with them. Clearly the zoo did not think this a good situation, particularly when she may still breed again if she was able to be peaceably mix with a male.

Does the fact that she does not get on with the present bull at the moment justify sending her to Spain?, Elephants live in natural female groups, I am sure you do not need to be told that, I am sorry but I have always had the greatest respect for Chester, although not one of my favourites,the elephant facilities are very good and I found it very annoying that CAPS chose to pick on it as they did, but I do not agree with Jangoli being sent to Spain, and please note it is not for selfish personal reasons just because I have known her since she resided in the U.K. This to me only gives the likes of CAPS, Born Free more ammunition, they are here to stay, like it or not and people take notice of what they are saying, however, despite my defence of Chester recently on facebook, if they or Born Free feel the need to criticise the relocation of this elephant to Spain, on this occasion, yes I agree with them, hence my title Animal Friendly.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

But why do you disagree with the sending of her to Spain? It's clear this was the best move for her to be given a chance to breed and not have to be separated from the rest of her herd whenever the male's around.

~Thylo

 

[Maguari]

Does the fact that she does not get on with the present bull at the moment justify sending her to Spain?,

Simple answer - the staff who worked with her every day seem to have believed it did - they're surely in the best place to make that judgement. I agree that it is preferable not to move females as far as possible, but it seems likely Aung Bo is to be around for some years - as well as years of Jangoli having to be kept separately for significant periods, keeping her at Chester also may well have nixed her last chances to breed, so I can see why this decision would be made.

Instead of 'sending her to Spain', we should see this as 'allowing her to live in a group where she will hopefully not face further unnecessary stress and will have a chance to breed again'. Because that is what it is.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

But why do you disagree with the sending of her to Spain? It's clear this was the best move for her to be given a chance to breed and not have to be separated from the rest of her herd whenever the male's around.

~Thylo

Also, although elephants live in natural female groups, in the past year or so she has very seldom been able to be with the females and so effectively has been alone. So do you prefer that to her moving?

~Thylo

 

[Animal Friendly]

Simple answer - the staff who worked with her every day seem to have believed it did - they're surely in the best place to make that judgement. I agree that it is preferable not to move females as far as possible, but it seems likely Aung Bo is to be around for some years - as well as years of Jangoli having to be kept separately for significant periods, keeping her at Chester also may well have nixed her last chances to breed, so I can see why this decision would be made.

Instead of 'sending her to Spain', we should see this as 'allowing her to live in a group where she will hopefully not face further unnecessary stress and will have a chance to breed again'. Because that is what it is.

The fact that she will have been packed off to Spain is in itself very stressful for the animal concerned, also it is not her fault that she had to be kept away from the rest of the herd since the new bull was installed. I remember in the early seventies at the Cricket St. Thomas Wildlife Park they had a young elephant, Twiggy, later joined by a companion Chikki. Unfortunately Twiggy later became difficult to handle, as documented in George Jacobs book, Twiggy was sent to various zoos later, including Belle Vue and Glasgow, George Jacobs stated in his book that Twiggy was shot as she was too dangerous, thanks to this marvellous device called a lap top I was able to discover that she is still alive in a zoo abroad, although living alone, The Born Free Foundation have recently highlighted her plight, expressing concern at how many zoos this elephant has resided at during her life, is Jangoli's plight much better I am now asking myself.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I'm sure she was not just packed in a box randomly and sent off. Modern zoos such as Chester don't do that anymore. I'm sure this was done as stresslessly and carefully as possible with the best interest of the animal in mind. And she will not be thrown from zoo to zoo, she's being given a home. And she won't be alone as Madrid as other elephants.

~Thylo

 

[Animal Friendly]

This is what is known as jumping to conclusions, taking two and two and making five the elephant which has the head-weaving issues is Thi Hi Way, who was born in a logging camp and as a result suffers from a few stereotypic behaviours - NOT Jangoli.

If you were familiar with the herd of elephants at Chester, you would know that since the arrival of the new male Aung-Bo, Jangoli has been kept separate from the herd whenever the male is mixed due to tensions between the pair - I would suggest this is a much more likely reason for finding her a new home as opposed to the motivation you assume Chester has. As Jangoli - although on the old side - is still cycling, moving her to Madrid might even permit her to breed.

Well Thi displayed no head weaving when she lived at London, if it is this elephant that is doing this at Chester I can only suggest that Thi has started this since residing at Chester for whatever reason

 

[Animal Friendly]

Simple answer - the staff who worked with her every day seem to have believed it did - they're surely in the best place to make that judgement. I agree that it is preferable not to move females as far as possible, but it seems likely Aung Bo is to be around for some years - as well as years of Jangoli having to be kept separately for significant periods, keeping her at Chester also may well have nixed her last chances to breed, so I can see why this decision would be made.

Instead of 'sending her to Spain', we should see this as 'allowing her to live in a group where she will hopefully not face further unnecessary stress and will have a chance to breed again'. Because that is what it is.

While I appreciate that the elephant keeping staff may have been consulted about moving Jangoli to Spain, at the end of the day they would have no say in the matter, it is not the done thing to dispute stud book recommendations, most zoos go along with it no matter what, Molly Badham was an exception to this I am pleased to say, she took the needs and well being of the animal concerned first, stud book recommendations second.

 

[Animal Friendly]

So it is all very well on zoo chat for a moderator to criticise and ridicule and at times bully a member, if , however a member attempts to defend himself,his post is simply just removed by another moderator in an attempt to make this member look foolish when all they have done is speak up for the well being of an animal, albeit one that resided in a zoo that is considered above any criticism by many members, very well I will have to remember to know my place in future, .It has also not gone unnoticed that an element on this zoochat have recently taken great pleasure in ridiculing a member who is physically disabled, that to them is considered jolly good fun, NO MODERATOR HAD OCCASION TO DELETE THIS, no it is funny, what sort of people are you may I ask?, the elephant cannot expect any compassion from people who participate and condone this behaviour.

 

[Yassa]

Please, let`s NOT bring Twycross into this.

Back to Jangolie. She is 48, at the end of her fertile years and has not bred in Chester for the last 10 years. And now she has been moved to a zoo that does not keep a bull and does not have the facilities to keep a bull. Madrid wants to keep a breeding group of elephants, but the bull barn has not been built yet. The bull who was supposed to be moved there once construction was finished, Ganapathy from Selwo, has since died.
In summary, Jangolie is as unlikely to breed in Madrid as she is in Chester due to her age and well, the lack of a bull!

If she was bonded with the other females in Chester, I am highly concerned for her because seperating a female elephant from her family is about the worst thing you can do to an elephant. I don`t know how close she was with them, though. Just the fact that elephants lived together for many years does not mean that they are actually closely bonded. Female elephants will always prefer their own offspring as social partners.

Just that she didn`t get along with Aung Bo is not a very god reason to move her - a bull is usually only with the females for a couple of hours during the day. That leaves 16 or even more hours that the females spend with themselves, so being kept seperated from the bull certainly does not equal being kept in isolation!

I am very concerned for her well-being, but it`s also possible that there are facts to consider that I don`t know. If there is something missing from the picture, I would be very happy to hear it to better understand that decision.

 

[lamna]

I can't pretend to be an expert, but from what I've heard and what I saw, neither Maya nor Jangoli are "true" members of the Chester herd. The Chester herd is Thai's family.

The facilities at Chester are pretty good, but space is at a premium. With a growing bull and two calves I can see why they might want to move Jangoli, especially if she wasn't getting along with Aung Bo.

 

[Bele]

According to the Elephant Database , Madrid have a single 25 year old female elephant Sami with her year-old male calf , sired by the late Ganapati . Hopefully Sami will welcome the company and get on with Jangoli .

 

[Pertinax]

Well Thi displayed no head weaving when she lived at London, if it is this elephant that is doing this at Chester I can only suggest that Thi has started this since residing at Chester for whatever reason

She may not have done it at London, I am not sure, but the reason she was originally sent to Chester was because she was very nervous and stressed by the close confinement of London's building. So any aberrant behaviour was already pretty established before leaving London.

 

[Pertinax]

Female elephants will always prefer their own offspring as social partners.

If Jangolie had produced a female calf or two instead of males that were later sent away, things might have been different now as she would have produced her own social clan as has Thi. But despite past breeding she has no kin at Chester.

 

[gentle lemur]

There could be no perfect solution to the Jangoli problem. I saw her last Saturday afternoon with some of the younger females and calves inside the house, but she wasn't in the main paddock with all the others in the morning.
If there is no chance of mixing her with Aung Bo, both of them would have had to continue to be separated from the herd for part of the time, potentially for every day for at least six years - by which time Aung Bo may have to be moved on as his offspring approach maturity. That would be far from ideal for Jangoli or the elephant keepers, although perhaps it would not bother Aung Bo too much.
Otherwise one of them has to be moved on. Aung Bo seems to be very well integrated with the all the other elephants, so it would be undesirable to move him, and there is no guarantee that Jangoli would accept any other bull even if all the others did. Moving Jangoli to Madrid does have a risk, but as an experienced mother she should respond to the cow and calf that are there now, which might reduce the stress on all of them. It would be nice if she could conceive again, either with a new bull or through AI; but even if she does not, retirement in a small herd in a warm climate could turn out to be the best outcome for Jangoli and the best outcome for the herd at Chester too.

Alan

 

[Animal Friendly]

This is a response Chester Zoo have given to a concerned member of the public regarding the relocation of Jangoli to Madrid Zoo, Spain. " Jangoli who is 46 has been with us for 20 years and in that time she became mother to Po Chin, now at Parc Paradiso in Belgium and Tunga who is at Bellewaede, also in Belgium. Naturally over the years she has been here the dynamics of the herd have changed and after much consideration we have moved Jangoli to a smaller herd in Madrid where we're confident she will settle well and enjoy her new surroundings. A keeper from Chester Zoo travelled with her and will remain at Madrid whilst she settles in, Kind regards C.Z."

 

[Pertinax]

Merely an observation- I imagine Noah's Ark and/or Longleat would have been interested in her too, but it wasn't to be. Possibly if Madrid get another bull she will have the chance to breed again.

 

[gentle lemur]

Merely an observation- I imagine Noah's Ark and/or Longleat would have been interested in her too, but it wasn't to be. Possibly if Madrid get another bull she will have the chance to breed again.

I can draw a conclusion from that.
Although it is fair to add that Noah's Ark's elephant is African.

Alan