"Stress" is fine and perfectly natural for all of us [humans included] as long as it does not become "distress'.
circus Memories- UK.
- Thread starter Pertinax
- Start date
"Stress" is fine and perfectly natural for all of us [humans included] as long as it does not become "distress'.
Do you think the 'boxing kangaroo' was okay? Somehow it grates on me in a way most other Circus animal acts don't...
The late B.B.C. producer, Michael Hurll is on record for stating that this was the worst act he had ever engaged and felt guilty about it Little and Large were involved in this "boxing match", looking back, how could the audience think this was hilarious?
I would have to see the particular act to form an opinion on it.
I have kangaroos here who "box" with each other and, over the years, we have hand raised a number of orphaned male kangaroos [particularly Reds] who have voluntarily "boxed" with us as they got older.
My comment was to advise that "stress" is not necessarily a bad thing.
There were two polar bear acts in this country, as well as Chipperfield's group Billy Smarts presented an act for several years up to the 1968 season when they were replaced with a tiger act, the Smart's trainer for both the polar bears and the tigers was Charles Illeneb. After Smarts the polar bear act was presented at the Sherwood Forest Zoo, operated at the time by Martin Lacey and afterwards the bears were dis pursed to zoo collections, mainly abroad I think.
Circopedia says the last (6?) Polar Bears from Ursula Bottcher's act were also dispersed among Zoos in Europe, as late as 1989/90's so I wonder if any bears from her acts are still surviving. The Clubb/Oxfordshire Polar bear is an ex circus one too I believe.
Many years ago in the late 1960s I recall see a giraffe which I sure was ridden. The circus was Chipperfield's and the location Wanstead Flats in London.
The former curator of Blackpool Zoo back in the 1970's Gret Zellma (not sure of the spelling of his surname) worked with polar bears prior to being at Blackpool with Bertram Mills I believe.
If you look at some of these past acts with cats, bears etal it is truly incredible how these trainers worked with these animals. I remember seeing photos of I recall the circus trainer Alfred Court with a mixed group of bears, big cats and great Danes!!
Jim Clubb emulated Alfred Court's mixed act. It varied over the years it was presented (1987 till 2000 when the remaining animals were sold) but comprised four tigers, two lions, two black bears, two striped hyenas, three leopards and a wolf. This act first appeared on Gandey's Circus (UK) and then in different circuses all over the world including Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey's.
I remember seeing Bertram Mills Circus at Olympia, when I was a child, in the early 1960s.
In particular, I recall that one of the acts featured several lions, several tigers, a melanistic leopard and a polar bear all in the circus ring simultaneously; I’m not really a circus enthusiast, but this was certainly an impressive and spectacular performance.
In particular, I recall that one of the acts featured several lions, several tigers, a melanistic leopard and a polar bear all in the circus ring simultaneously; I’m not really a circus enthusiast, but this was certainly an impressive and spectacular performance.
I remember very well Billy Smart's elephants being paraded through the town one Sunday afternoon in 1968, this would have been the first circus I ever saw. They walked out of the station having alighted from their train, I remember counting them as they appeared through the station doors, fifteen of them walking trunk to tail headed by lead elephant Birma. The streets were lined with people all along the route to the recreation ground about two miles from the town center station, this parade certainly signified that the circus had arrived in town, everyone seamed to go to the circus then, the big blue tent could seat up to 6000 people, a huge affair. Although these parades have been well documented I have yet to find any material relating to the elephant's return to the station late on a Saturday night after the last show. This also must have been quite a sight, fifteen elephants walking in the dark to the station when the town center would have been packed with people out enjoying themselves. Unfortunately this huge circus only travelled for another three years, rising costs, in particular British Rail's charges for transporting the elephants, horses and other hoof stock, had made the show uneconomic. The elephants were sold to Ringling Brothers Barnum and Bailey circus in America, apart from Birma who was part of the Smart family. Birma can be seen in the safari park scenes of the film, Mutiny on the buses, starring Reg Varney, filmed at Windsor safari park when owned by the Smart family.
That is half the problem with some of today's animal handlers,keepers and trainers, they don't realise the historical importance of circus.Most of the training and husbandry techniques we employ today have derived from this origin.I believe anyone that has to work with or train animals should be in debt to those that have passed before us and by reading and conversing with those in the circus industry, a lot of knowledge can be gleened from this source.I would like to see circus become as great as it has been in the past.
Having trained animals for some years (many marine mammals) and stilling knowing people within the circus world (mainly sea lion trainers) and having visited quite a few circuses over the years I have to agree you make a very interesting point which is partly true.
However, modern animal training is based on positive reinforcement (operant conditioning) and is based on the work of B.F. Skinner or to be more accurate the work of his students Marian and Keller Bailey and their colleague Bob Bailey. This was later popularised by zoologist [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Pryor"]Karen Pryor[/ame] who with a then husband set-up Ocean Park in Hawaii.
This isn’t to say a lot of techniques where not developed through circus training in fact positive reinforcement training (using reward) was referred to as “gentaling” in circus circles and I am not dismissing circus animal trainers out of hand. Far from it, as discussed here some of the animal displays they presented are quite extraordinary. Moreover, I do find it ironic that in the UK where there a handful of circuses presenting trained animals (even domestic ones) many zoos have some form of trained animal demonstrations.
However, the research into how the techniques work derived from students of psychology. This was probably because in the circus world animal trainers handed down their skills through generations and could in fact be quite secretive on how they trained the displays that went into the circus ring; no doubt for very obvious reason as this was how they made their living.
It's only in recent times that circus people generally have allowed proper scientific research of their training and husbandry with scientists: e.g. the research of Dr Matha Kiley-Worthington in 1990 and more recently the 2007 DEFRA report.
One of my earliest childhood memories is being taken to the circus when it came to the north-east of England when I was about 3 or 4 - so, about 1990-91 - and having ridden a circus elephant. Still have the photos somewhere....
Naturally, I am mortified now at the idea of circuses with animals, but I have to admit that having the chance to ride an elephant is a memory that will stay with me forever, and helped spark my love of animals. I'd love to know what happened to "my" elephant. Probably nothing good.
Naturally, I am mortified now at the idea of circuses with animals, but I have to admit that having the chance to ride an elephant is a memory that will stay with me forever, and helped spark my love of animals. I'd love to know what happened to "my" elephant. Probably nothing good.
One of my earliest childhood memories is being taken to the circus when it came to the north-east of England when I was about 3 or 4 - so, about 1990-91 - and having ridden a circus elephant. Still have the photos somewhere....
Naturally, I am mortified now at the idea of circuses with animals, but I have to admit that having the chance to ride an elephant is a memory that will stay with me forever, and helped spark my love of animals. I'd love to know what happened to "my" elephant. Probably nothing good.
Interesting observation. I think the direct psychical link between animals and humans can have a very profound affect of people and should be underestimated.
If you can find the name of the circus it may be possible to find out what did happen to the elephant. I know quite few circus elephants ended up in zoo and wild life parks.
One of my earliest childhood memories is being taken to the circus when it came to the north-east of England when I was about 3 or 4 - so, about 1990-91 - and having ridden a circus elephant. Still have the photos somewhere....
Naturally, I am mortified now at the idea of circuses with animals, but I have to admit that having the chance to ride an elephant is a memory that will stay with me forever, and helped spark my love of animals. I'd love to know what happened to "my" elephant. Probably nothing good.
If the elephant concerned was at the South park Darlington in 1991 then it belonged to the Hungarian Richter family who toured with Tony Hopkins presentation of Chipperfields circus from 1991 until 1993. They had three Asian cow elephants, the one used for the photographs also did a comedy barber shop routine. This elephant has since passed on, one however I understand is still alive on the Richters own show in Hungary. These elephants also appeared in the James Bond film Octopussy.
thanks for the information!
One of my earliest childhood memories is being taken to the circus when it came to the north-east of England when I was about 3 or 4 - so, about 1990-91 - and having ridden a circus elephant. Still have the photos somewhere....
Naturally, I am mortified now at the idea of circuses with animals, but I have to admit that having the chance to ride an elephant is a memory that will stay with me forever, and helped spark my love of animals. I'd love to know what happened to "my" elephant. Probably nothing good.
Thanks for your comment , this thread is very interesting its very good reading about other peoples circuses memories . Unfortunately i think the thread is ruined by people personnel opinions like unfortunatly nothing good . Not sure of your background but im sure if you knew a lot about elephant keeping your probaby find that the care circus elephants received was and still is exceptinally very good .
I am intrigued, and gratified, by the number of people who admit that their interest in animals was generated by the circus.
I am appalled at how many of them have now been influenced by the unproven rantings of left-wing, looney libbers and feel that they have to distance themselves from those wonderful memories.
I am appalled at how many of them have now been influenced by the unproven rantings of left-wing, looney libbers and feel that they have to distance themselves from those wonderful memories.
Not me - if I *really* wanted to distance myself from those memories would I have:
a) Specifically sought out a 3-week old thread on circus animals in the UK and bumped it so that I could tell people about my experience and
b) Ask if anyone knew what had happened to the animal I saw?
For the record, it is one of my most cherished childhood memories, and as I said influenced my love of animals today.
As for being influenced by rantings, I actually haven't read any that I can recall - I just feel that a life on the road is likely to be a lot more stressful for an elephant (or indeed any other animal) than being "at home" as it were in familiar surroundings, and also knew only one former UK circus elephant was said to still be alive, which seemed to suggest a statistically high die-off rate.
I'm not going to even try to engage with wibbs' claim that my personal opinion is ruining the thread...