Cirus man died

Zoos have opted to disguise their artificiallity with simulations of freedom. But that effort is largely for the visitor's concience and is no illusion to a captive animal. For practical reasons these measures are not possible in a circus environment and unneccessary for the purpose the enclosures serve; lets face it, they are not 'exhibits'.

Theoretically, there is no reason why circus animals shouldn't be both mentally and physically healthy. I am familiar with animals in both zoo and circus environments to a degree and I would say that physically, at least, those in circuses are some of the fittest and healthiest you'll find of certain species.

Whether its partially dictated or not, the emotional repertoire of many circus animals perhaps more closely resembles that of a wild individuals

No one would deny that bad practice does take place in circuses, as it does in every proffession. I wouldn't even like to comment on whether this is the exception or the rule.

There are some very uneducated and ill-influenced replies on this thread.

I have every confidence in the government's Circus Working Group. It is a made up of experts put forward by the industry and by welfare organisations.

Though I think that the problem is negligible in the UK, there are a lot of circus animals in unnaceptable conditions thoughout the world.
 
Paradoxurus: you have created a paradox. You end your thread by bashing unacceptable conditions in circuses throughout the world, and yet your writing supports the government's Circus Working Group. In your summation you seem to frown upon animals performing tricks, and yet agree with a focus group that doesn't necessarily condemn such bizarre acts. It's difficult for me to comprehend how anyone can support animals in circuses...period. If one were to look at the lack of space allotted to each individual animal, then that alone makes circuses much worse than almost any zoo. If you were a big cat, bear, elephant, seal, monkey, etc...would you rather exist in a circus or a zoo?
 
Arna was responsible for the crush injuries to the mans back, still waiting on report for the coroner as to wether it was her or a heart attack that killed him, but he was definatley crushed by arna at some point.
 
as soon as i heard this news i knew you circus hates would blame it on 'animal cruelty' and 'elephants are not suppodsed to be in the circus' and all that..

as it turns out the man suffered from a heart attack and arna the elephant was poking him to see if he was ok. this is an obvious turn around for all you negative people saying that they hate their handlers etc. when it was clearly an act of love and care towards the man from the animal.

you guys can not deny the evidence as it was investigated in depth and the police sayed that arna was distressed towards what had happened and said it was not at all the animals fault of any kind.

so maybe you guys should not doubt that the animals arent cared for properly and hate their handlres when a clear demonstration of this animal showind effection towards its handler has been made.

isint it amazing that animals can care about humans too!
 
No problems there. That is what is believed to have happened well yesterday anyway, unless the investigation has already wraapped up. also I don't doubt an crush injuries were accidental. The news reports stateted that he was unloading the girls, if you had a heart attack at them door of the truck then there will undoubtedly be a crush resulting. I also don't doubt that Arna feels greatly for the loss of this man, it has been proven that elephants to feel saddened by a loss. This will be taken advantage of by animal libbers though and there's nothing that can be done. Circuese want the harrasment to stop they should retire the elephants like Perry Brothers has done
 
Without CIRCUSSES many animals would be extint???? Can you please give me one, only ONE example where circusses prevented the extinction of one species???

By the way, I seriously doubt that the injuries of the man were the result of Arna "checking him lovingly". Don`t forget that elephants are able to lovingly check their newborn calves who weight around the same like an adult man without causing them any injuries at all. Elephants have perfect body coordination and know about their strength. If an elephant injures someone, you can be pretty sure that the elephants meant it that way, unless it was an accident like the elephant slipped down the ramp of the transporter or so.
 
Yassa. I agree. I would have thought any crush injuries would have resulted from the elephant coming down from the truck... elephants know exactly where the rest of their body is and how much pressure they are applying, elephants give massages in thailand, and I have seen displays of elephants walking over 20 people with only enough room for one foot between each person. I would not think Arna Purposely killed her keeper (unlike Ashton's Abu) she has ahad a fairly calm life. But I doubt the crush injuries were a result of her affectionately checking to see if he was ok also.
 
I have to say that I agree with Paradoxarus in several aspects, @patrick. Zoos are similarily artificial or in certain agrees even more so compared to circuses (think of hotwires around plants so that the greenery looks appealing to the visitors, the docking of bird wings etc.). And if You give it a deeper thought: the night quartersof many zoo animals, where they spend a considerable time of their life in, aren't usually that much bigger if at all than the "space" they have in a circus; not to mention some outdoor exhibits (think of San Francisco) that offer less room and opportunity for naturalistic behaviour than a well-made circus show. The aspect with the healthy animals isn't wrong either: think of a good circus program (I'm not talking about one forcing animals to act in a way harmful and frightening for them) as a fitness program. Even "lazy" animals like lions can benefit from being animated to move a little bit once in a while. Actually, the idea of animal training known from the circus ( with its additional benefit of being popular among zoo audience) has found its way to the zoo-may it be medical training, Sea lion shows or the former Somali Wild Donkey training in Basel. Some zoomen have even tried (Hagenbeck, Grzimek etc.) and some still try to integrate the big cat circus routine into zoo business (spicing it up with educational qualities. e.g. showing how far a Cougar can jump etc., the King cheetah at Miami MetroZoo etc.), although liability problems usually stopped a larger dissemination of this idea among zoos.
Paradoxarus is also comprehensible and correct in stating that there are both bad as well as good circuses as there good and bad zoos. And it's also true that there institutions trying to correct grievances among circuses without consequently demanding their ultimate closure-very similar to the situation in zoos, where more (constructive) criticism wouldn't be bad, either.
I'm neither a circus fan nor a circus "hater"-I just think that one should talk about the subject "circus" just as mature and rational as about the subject "zoo", without becoming too emotional. And about the constant request by snowleopard considering an anthropomorphised decision between "circus" and "zoo": if I were a lion male(and would keep my human mind to actually make this logical decision, though this would make me -rather contrary to Wittgenstein's famous quote and according to Budiansky- to something else than a lion-a "hion", maybe) I would prefer the zoo-simply because it would mean that I could sleep all day long and have my meal delievered without having to do anything for it but lie around, maybe reproduce and roar now and then...;)
 
my major objection to circuses is a philosophical one. the circus as a cultural institution, as opposed to a zoo are distinct things and i cannot see any overlap other than perhaps the fact that both have animals.
i put circuses in the same boat as the running of the bulls in spain, keeping siamese fighting fish in tic-tac containers on top of IPODS, animal fighting and bear bile production. they hark back to an era when mans dominion over nature was a resonating theme. zoos too, may have evolved from this era but the key word there is evolve.
phiosophically and physically, the world zoo community as whole has reinvented itself. the circus has not.
what a circus audience learns about nature....or conservation from seeing a lion in a cage or some poor monkeys balancing on a bike is beyond me. this may not be outright cruelty, but its certainly not optimal and it cannot be justified.
i can rationalise the importation of 8 thai tourist elephants into australian zoos for the greater good. i can rationalise seal shows in zoos, bird shows. yes it sucks that the sumatran tigers at ur local zoo arent in Sumatra. but the zoos are working hard on all fronts to conserve species and enlighten people.
circuses are not. i learnt nothing from visiting Stardust Circus. im not sentimental, nor am i inclined to project human emotions on to an animal. but the days of keeping battery hens, stalled pigs and circus animals must surely be coming to an end. after all, Descartes died a long time ago
 
@ Sun Wukong: the night quarters for lions and tigers in those circusses which visited my city in the last 5 years were approx. 5-10 times smaller then those in a normal zoo. The tigers could barely turn around, the cages were smaller then the tiger was long if you incluse the tail. The outdoor enclosures were worse then anything I have ever seen in a zoo. The outdoor cages in the big cat house in Tierpark Berlin are looking excellent compared to what a normal circus tiger or lion has....
 
@Yassa: Although Tierpark Berlin is always cited as an example of bad -looking big cat exhibits, it just shows "the underwear" in terms of night enclosures which other zoos hide. On the contrary, I can state that I have seen big cat enclosures in circuses that were better than some of the indoor or even outdoor exhibits for the same species in several zoos "hinter den Kulissen" especially in Eastern Europe, Asia, but also the USA. Unlike You, I unfortunately didn't have a measuring tape to determine how many times they differed from each other when it comes to sizes...;) If You ever happen to visit that young lion in Chengdu Zoo, You'll know what I mean.
@glyn: I have written at the other circus thread about the closeness of zoos and circuses in regard to their origin and history; parts of that also refer to Your philosphical objection. Read it if You want to know what I mean.
To the question regarding the educational effect of zoo vs. circus: does Joe Average learn a lot from a cougar sleeping all the time during his zoo visit? Or can he learn more from an animal show in which the cougar is showing its tremendous agility by performing tricks based on natural behaviour? And can't the idea of "Mens sana in corpore sano" not also be used in terms of "zoo" animals doing "circus" tricks to stay healthy and mentally challenged?
And about "battery hens, stalled pig(...)" husbandry coming to end: unless You can invent another way to deliver affordable/cheap(!) animal products to billions of people that avoids said animal keeping, I'm afraid that You and others will have to live with that...which doesn't mean I'm callous in regard to this aspect.
 
I didn`t intend to compare big cat cages in circusses to zoos in China or eastern Europe. No doubt that you will find many zoos in these countries who are even worse then the circusses I have seen the last years. But I have yet to see a big cat night enclosure in a german zoo which is as bad as the "tiger battery" I saw in at least 5 circusses. The night dens in the Brehmhaus are 5 star luxus accomondation compared to that.
 
@Yassa: I'm trying to talk on a global level. But if You want to put emphasis on German zoos/circuses, I can tell You that many (not all) of the German night quarters have improved more or less in comparison to their former status(which was usually a lot more like that of the ones You saw in some German circuses). However, in certain German zoos I'm not to sure whether the big cat husbandry really improved, even "space"-wise in comparison to the old enclosures-or that the new enclosures are rather just good examples of "window-dressing" for the visitors. Think of the lions at Munich Zoo...
 
Sun Wukong: you are attempting to rationalize the keeping of performing animals in a circus by mentioning how healthy they are in comparison to some zoo animals. There is also the fact that you are attempting to argue that the living conditions of some circus mammals are actually better than the environment that others face in zoos. All of the correct nutritional requirements and "exercise programs" that you like in circuses cannot justify the existence of such abominations. Why not argue for the termination of circuses, rather than nitpick over the finer points in terms of animals husbandry? Yassa has a good point by stating (I'll paraphrase) that the worst indoors quarter at the worst zoo are still better than any single circus enclosure. He's correct.

Glyn brings up some excellent points on conservation, which apparently circuses don't know the meaning of. Placards and various signs on zoo exhibits detail many animal facts, and naturally circuses lack such information on the beast wagons and elephant chains.
 
@snowleopard: A lot of zoos advertise with their important role in "conservation"; if You look closely, You quite often (not always!) find out that this is just window-dressing but hardly anything else. Few zoos actually nowadays live up to Hediger's concept of a modern zoo; just like in the case of the circus, entertainment is still the main reason why zoos are visited. Signs and placards detail many facts, but only few (which nevertheless is something!) read them; the actual obvious, i.e. the animal, is more important.
I'm attempting nothing, especially not trying to"(...) to rationalize the keeping of performing animals in a circus by mentioning how healthy they are(...)". Like I said before, I'm neither a circus advocate nor a circus hater; I'm trying to discuss the subject "circus" on a rational level with all its pros and cons. And one pro is the aspect that the knowledge of the benefit of training zoo animals both mentally and physiologically shouldn't be neglected just because it comes from a circus background. And sorry to contradict You again: I did not say that exercise regiment etc. are the justification of keeping exotics in circuses; what I said was that there are positive aspects of this "abomination"(sic!) that should not be neglected just because someone has a personal, a bit too emotional grudge against circuses. Exotic animal shows (not circuses!) are going to go out of business due to various reasons (mentioned in the other thread); the knowledge we gained from these, however, should not be tabooed.
"Yassa has a good point by stating (I'll paraphrase) that the worst indoors quarter at the worst zoo are still better than any single circus enclosure. He's correct." Unfortunately not, especially not on an international level.
 
Well my comparison circus-zoos was based on an international level (although with german examples), but not on the worst zoos of the world in South-East Asia and China, I admit. And my personal opinion is that it makes no sense to include the worst zoos of these regions into this discussion while most of us there have their knowledge about zoos from Europe, Australia and maybe the USA/Canada. The differences between an average german or english or australian zoo and a chinese (as example) zoo are so big that general comparisons make not much sense. From what I have heard (havn`t seen it with my own eyes and not sure if I wanted...) about zoos in China, many countries in East Europe, South-East Asia ect. I`d certainly agree with the anti-zoo-lobby that many if not most of these zoos should be closed down unless significant improvements can be done SOON. Same like most circusses with aniamls in "our" countries, to get back to the topic.
 
@Sun Wukong and Yassa. You guys are both right about the many atrocious zoos throughout southeast Asia, China and Japan. I've never visited that particular region of the world, but have seen many terrible photos of zoo cages that we can all agree are "abominations". On the Zoocheck Canada website there is a 205 page report on polar bears in Japanese zoos, and the numerous photos in that report are quite shocking to view. Many Japanese zoos have these massive bears in appalling enclousures, and if I remember correctly there are close to 30 zoos in that country that house polar bears. That in itself is a bizarre statistic when one considers how few zoos worldwide actually showcase polar bears. However, more and more U.S. zoos are jumping on the global warming/shrinking ice bandwagon and designing bigger and better arctic enclosures.
 
If You want to talk on an international level, You also have to integrate the negative examples-and they're not just limited to said countries... And btw: the differences in certain aspects aren't that big, believe it or not. Enough said about that matter; a negative generalisation about circuses in the EU, AUS, NZ, USA, CDN or whatever You call "our" countries doesn't contribute much to the intented rational discussion about the subject "circus".

And about the new "artic" enclosures: I'm just wondering whether millions spent on artificial rocks and concrete will actually result in better polar bear exhibits...
 
Ara said:
That's not going to happen. An elephant, in this country at least, is so scarce, valuable and just plain unavailable that merely killing a human will not lead to its death. Abu (with Ashtons circus) lived a long life despite killing three people over a 17 year period.
Click to expand...

In NZ our OSH (Occupational Safety and Health) people would be all over that...

What is the similar body in Aus..?

Would they be launching they're own investigation..?

One is started in NZ for any death in the workplace...

In my own opinion these type of deaths are reason enough for the animals to be banned at circuses...

@ Sun Wukong... Simply saying that you are not a circus advocator or circus hater doesn't mean you aren't one or the other, your comments seem to be advocating wild animals in circuses...

My personal opinion is that laws should be passed (in Aus/NZ) that wild animals cannot be kept in circuses unless they have some type of accreditation (it'd be an easy out for the government especially if they made it ARAZPA..!), it would set a precedent...

Simply my personal opion is I'm against wild animals in circuses, their nature doesn't allow for enclosures... Every time I've seen ex-circus animals in a zoo they are in poor condition physically and mentally... They usually exhibit one, the other or both...

E.g. (and maybe others can give examples...);

I saw an ex-circus baboon at the Lion Man's park in Whangarei (it's not an especially outstanding park), it was losing it hair and could not be kept with other baboons because of behavioural problems (the other animals at the park looked well cared for and in much better condition)...
 
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