Krokodille Zoo Crocodile Zoo

crocman said:
I do totally agree!
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As do I.

Croc farming may be a good thing for some of the croc. spp.
However, I do feel that zoos should / could do more in terms of looking after more endangered taxa in captivity.

As our esteemed gentleman has pointed out: we have Tomistomas, Cubans and Phils ... it is a start. Hopefully, Morelet's and Chinese Alligators (2nd helping ... fingers *** better).
 
Why are people here refusing to believe the breeding of chinese alligators when Crocodile Zoo has officially stated that a young alligator was born on august 30th? There is even a picture on it on the front page of Crocodile Zoos website (it's the one on the right).
 
Jurek7 said:
Shallow concrete outdoor pond at Rotterdam Zoo, frankly, looks not suitable for wintering alligators at all. I hope the zoo plans a new accomodation?
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the winter enclosure is indoors. it's the building next to the pond and not visible to the public.

they're not sure what went wrong, but guess it were the harsh weatherconditions and temp dropped below freezing in the building.
(as an extra "bonus", these animals never hibernated before, so imo even if it didn't drop below 0 it may have been a very big shock alltogether.)
 
To ask for more Cuban crocodiles and Chinese alligators (breeding) instead of Nile crocodiles and Salties is all right and fine, but: aren't there two aspects you forget?
One is that when the average visitor wants to see a croc in a zoo, he/she wants to see "a big one" as seen on TV. Neither purebred Cuban, Philippine and Siamese crocs or Chinese alligators are really physically big crocodiles. So Nile and Saltwater crocs have about the same "crowd pleasing function" as big Burmese/Retic pythons, Green anacondas or African Spurred tortoises.
Secondly, there is a problem you all are surely aware of: intraspecific aggression, also due to limited holding space. I have encountered this in particular in Cuban crocs and Chinese alligators in different facilities. So to establish working breeding groups (or rather, couples) might not be easy at the given European conditions of husbandry.

What I think could considerably boost the European public interest in particular in the sultry and smart Cuban crocs would be public "show"/medical training, as once undertaken by Gatorworld and currently by other facilities in the US/Australia. That applies for all other croc species, too, and is currently started in some European zoos (crocman knows more about that than I do).

http://reptilebehavior.com/
 
Agreed with the "big one" - unfortunately.But have you seen the very large ( 4-4.5 m ) Tomistoma in Artis and Dvur Kralove? Very impressive!

Also agreed with the sense of a good crocodilian training. Many US zoos are doing this now and it helps a lot for both behavioral enrichment and increasing keeper safety. Cologne and Hamburg in Germany started target training as well with great success.
 
to the general public a croc is indeed a croc.
but "the big one" is quite relative. In my experience everything over 2m in length is considered "a big one". unless they have an animal right next to it to compare to.
the same goes for snakes: I've had people call my boa constrictors very big whereas they are about 1m80, it's only when you keep a 3m burmese next to it when they realise it's not that big.

regarding intraspecific agression and limited holding space. that is indeed a known problem, but often induced by zoos themselves. animals are often not introduced properly, enclosure don't provide in hideouts and visual barriers. this is even for niles and spectacled caimans a problem and those are amongst the easiest to adapt to those circumstances because of their natural habitat.
 
Regarding the big tomistomas in both zoos: I have. The crooked-snouted one at Tierpark Berlin, too. Impressive, indeed! However, you know better than me that the murky water favourising "shy crocodile" tomistoma isn't actually the best species for the crystal clear zoo water bassins, as required by the public...

As for the size of tomistomas:
The world's largest modern crocodilian skull : Tetrapod Zoology

@forumbully: in regard to the relativity of sizes: a normal Paleosuchus or Osteolaemus sp. specimen will hardly ever trigger the same response in the paying public as a big saltie, American gator or any other big croc. You're right that people can be mislead due to lack of comparison (and fear). However, all those TV shows and films with spectacular huge crocs have fuelled the public expectations in regard to "supersize" herps.
 
water doesn't have to be murky. the animal must simply feel secure.
in todays age with underwater views and such there are ample ways of providing cover for an animal as well as a good view for the public. problem is that most exhibits are wide open water with a beach for sunbathing. as said, this may work for niles and spectacled kaiman as their natural habitat is somewhat similar. but for secretive species (and most crocs are) it's totally wrong.

and I'm aware that paleosuchus, osteolamus and chinese alligator are indeed to small to be impressive. but we're talking about crocs in general and there are a lot species that grow between 2 and 3m that are endangered and can easily pass for "a big one" to the general public (provided you don't keep a 4m salty next to it)
 
I think that when you want to make an animal feel comfortable in a captive environment, you should try to recreate its natural habitat as much as possible-or at least adequately. For breeding success (which isn't unfortunately a common thing in most captive tomistomas), this is often even more true. So maybe it would be better to keep tomistomas breeding pairs in muddy large outdoor enclosures (f.e. in Asia, the Southern US, Australia and warmer parts of Europe) than in clear public water bassins.

As in regard to " a 4m salty next to it": if apt ressources and space are available, the facility could keep a single big specimen of, say, saltie, nile,...or even Tomistoma, and next to it a breeding pair/group of a smaller endangered croc species. And I would advocate more European zoos to install an outdoor enclosure for croc species-even when it can only be used in the warm summer season.
 
No need of muddy water if you have a well designed exhibit with hiding spots etc.
See San Antonio Zoo ( one example) : Crystal clear water and Tomistoma breeding works since 3 years on a annual basis.

Agreed with outdoor enclosures: Wished we had some more in Europe.
 
allthough there's no equal to real sunlight for general reptile health, I disagree in this case.
not because of the animals, but because of the general lack of space in zoos.

I see no harm in outdoor enclosures for alligators, because they require minimal space during hibernation (if you decide to hibernate them indoors). but for other crocs you would have half your habitat unused because of weather conditions in most part of europe.

I see more advantage in nice greenhouses for crocs. nowadays there's enough materials available that let UV through.
 
The lack of space in zoos is one old problem and the reason, why so many older crocodile enclosures are too small. I wished we could have some more gator and caiman exhibits outdoors. South African niles could be kept outdoors during the summer season as well.
Did you see the gigantic new nile enclosure in Cologne ( Hippodom)?
 
yeps, we were there the 19th.
I really like the overall complex, allthough I find the concept of crocodile river in Rotterdam a little better. more space for small species, more variation in decoration.
the croc enclosure is quite similar to the one in rotterdam, so no comment on that
hippodom certainly is a great new asset to cologne zoo.
 
@crocman: San Antonio seems to be rather the exception that proves the rules...Nevertheless, it's good that they are breeding there.

As for the general "lack of space": that's hardly a real argument in several cases. In comparison to the space requirements of many of the popular species of the mammalian (mega)fauna (but also smaller popular mammals-as Cologne's meerkat exhibit illustrates...) kept in zoos, crocs are quite frugal. Besides: we all know that enclosure size isn't everything, is it? ;)

Why should only, if at all, alligators have an outdoor enclosure, when different species of tortoises (also and especially (sub)tropical species) are commonly kept outdoors during the warm seasons in many European zoos? The only major difference is the security factor: most tortoises won't hurt a visitor accidently pushed into their exhibit...
Beijing Zoo's rather primitive crocodile exhibit could be a (very) basic model of how to build a combined indoor and outdoor exhibit for crocodile species. More modern examples such as Prague and Budapest show that this is also possible in Europe.
 
I do remain convinced that the size issue is only relative. People are fascinated with crocs full stop ... The collection planning process is based on various criteria and not just attendance records. If zoos in the established EAZA zoo community are to take their educational and conservation breeding role seriously they should invest much much more in exhibiting, managing populations and breeding various endangered croc taxa.

That entails a move away from Nile crocs and saltwater crocs. Now, I do not believe for a minute that people would be bothered about not seeing Nilies or salties but Cubans or Tomistomas in stead. To me the spectacle is the same ... as in terms of awe-inspiring ... :D
 
My thoughts about crocodiles:

Yes, public wants to see big specimens, but such endangered species like orinoco crocodile, gharial and malay gharial grow to very impressive sizes. Especially that few nile and saltwater crocs in zoos are fully grown and will not be for decades. Actually, most nile crocs never grow to the size of these well-photographed giant males in Mara.

It would be very good if zoos stopped building croc exhibits themed after Africa for nile crocs. Or put non-African crocs in them. The more educated part of the public will understand priority of endangered species, the less educated part will not care. Anyway, most zoos mix species from different parts of Africa which nowhere occur together - this geographic principle is a sort of a convention.

I am especially sad about a pair of adult malay gharials in Artis which have too small exhibit to breed and no immediate plans to provide one.

I agree that most croc exhibits are too small. I also think the problem is land area: typically too small, barren, often hard-surfaced, and with no material to build a nest.

I would not keep tropical crocodiles, or giant tortoises or komodo dragons outdoors in temperate climate, unless somebody installs some novel additional heating outdoors. Preferred temperature for most tropical reptiles is in the 30's degrees in warm season, a good 10 degrees warmer than the usual warm day in temperate Europe. Large reptiles, with their low volume to surface ratio, have big difficulty to warm up. I think most large reptiles in Europe are, in fact, permanently under-heated. It might be also why giant tortoises virtually never breed in Europe. Large greenhouse-type exhibits with artifical full-spectrum light, which is available, are better.

Actually, there is plenty of existing small exhibits for crocs in Europe, and they might be good for smaller species. This would require some clever shuffling of crocs between zoos.
 
Jurek7 said:
I would not keep tropical crocodiles, or giant tortoises or komodo dragons outdoors in temperate climate, unless somebody installs some novel additional heating outdoors. Preferred temperature for most tropical reptiles is in the 30's degrees in warm season, a good 10 degrees warmer than the usual warm day in temperate Europe. Large reptiles, with their low volume to surface ratio, have big difficulty to warm up. I think most large reptiles in Europe are, in fact, permanently under-heated. It might be also why giant tortoises virtually never breed in Europe. Large greenhouse-type exhibits with artifical full-spectrum light, which is available, are better.
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First time I disagree with you, @Jurek7:

- Giant tortoises have been and are bred in Europe, both privately and in zoos (Zurich). Given the size and apt husbandry places, however, only few institutions are interested to breed, and only few give them the opportunity to do so and raise the youngs.
- Even the best artificial lighting (and you wouldn't believe how many of the UV-lamps on the market are utter garbage...) can't fully replace natural sun light.
- In their natural habitats, even the larger reptiles never stay in the +30 ° C (+86 F for the American readers;) areas all day long.
In fact, the larger body size makes the "containment" of heat even easier => inertial homeothermy. So the larger reptiles should be more than OK to cover with warm (!) European summer weather. In fact, giving reptiles excess to natural sun light in European summer often results in marvellous effects on their well-being and health.
-Good giant tortoise exhibits in Europe (like the one in Zurich) usually offer an outdoor heating system, just in case.

There is one aspect about gharials that makes their keeping in confined areas (in particular with glass walls) a bit risky: their quite fragile snouts. Personally, I have seen more than a few with damaged snouts so far...
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
If zoos in the established EAZA zoo community are to take their educational and conservation breeding role seriously they should invest much much more in exhibiting, managing populations and breeding various endangered croc taxa.

(...) To me (...)
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That's why pretty much every zoo keeps the highly endangered Meerkat, South American Coati and Greater Flamingo...Not to mention American alligator and Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman, when crocodilians are concerned...

Unfortunately, you're no benchmark for the average zoo visitor. Neither is any of the zoochat members, including myself...:D

Although crocs in general are popular, the bigger specimens are usually more popular than the smaller ones-except when the smaller ones are somehow "exceptional", like the following ones:
>why the youtube links never show up is beyond me-just type "albino caiman" into the search engine...<
 
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