Damian Aspinall: You all know my views on zoos prove me wrong
- Thread starter Damian Aspinall
- Start date
So this has troll behavior written all over it EVEN IF this is the real Damian Aspinall. Reminds me of the "change my mind" meme where they don't want their mind changed, they just want to debate with people on the internet where there are no consequences for what they say and the people they are debating are not all informed on all the topics that are brought up. Just a way for him to feel good about himself while protected behind a screen. Feeding this troll brings nothing to the table as no one's opinion is going to be changed because no one here is looking to have it changed. Even though I just said not to feed him I will give a little snack and leave it at that because I was particularly bothered by something he wrote and it reminded me of anti-science mindsets we see quite frequently on social media.
Saying that the "cages" at AZA accredited institutions like the Bronx are horrible for the animals and to trust you based on nothing is like climate change deniers and antivaxxers arguments where 99% of experts in the field have an educated opinion on the matter based on evidence but one person who claims to be an expert says something else without evidence and we should believe them because reasons. I trust the people who work with these animals at these amazing institutions and I know that they give the best lives and welfare that these animals could get.
Also he is basically flat out denying that the factors that is causing extinctions like habitat loss and chytrid fungus are still happening and that we can just set aside some wild area like it's just that easy. This guy has no credibility.
Saying that the "cages" at AZA accredited institutions like the Bronx are horrible for the animals and to trust you based on nothing is like climate change deniers and antivaxxers arguments where 99% of experts in the field have an educated opinion on the matter based on evidence but one person who claims to be an expert says something else without evidence and we should believe them because reasons. I trust the people who work with these animals at these amazing institutions and I know that they give the best lives and welfare that these animals could get.
Also he is basically flat out denying that the factors that is causing extinctions like habitat loss and chytrid fungus are still happening and that we can just set aside some wild area like it's just that easy. This guy has no credibility.
It is good to get these views out in the open and being discussed. Most on here will hate bad zoos and will want to make zoos better places for the animals they care for and the species in the wild. This is not a black and white issue and the debate about zoos is nuanced. We have to be driven by the evidence for and against. Zoos have a huge amount to offer the world in developing skills and research, although this is not appreciated by most.
Getting actually involved in the thread briefly to note that this fits my sentiments precisely.
Ok, I have been fighting this fight for a long time so I'm going to bring up some key points and make this brief. Your attempts at saving Gorilla species is no different from the work done by zoos in the idea that it helps gorilla populations in the wild. You breed and release Gorillas to help increase their population whereas zoos work with natives in deforested areas to help local gorilla populations, provide funding to conservation programs in Africa, and continuously gather information about gorillas that helps conserve them in the wild. Zoos protect species both inside and out AZA-accredited zoos provide some of the best care in the world and they don't do it for many as almost all are nonprofit, no they do it for the animals. They do this because they care about teaching people about how beautiful and amazing animals are. And while some zoos are for-profit and exploit animals I can proudly say that most people here want those for-profit zoos shut down. We love animals just like you do and we want to see them happy and healthy and I can assure you that proper AZA-accredited zoos keep animals happy and healthy because zoos wouldn't be spending so much time and money on them if they weren't in proper care. I understand your sympathy for these animals but you are directing your hatred in the wrong area, It's not the mainstream modern zoos you want to attack it's the roadside cages that exhibit animals just for profit.
(Also even if this isn't him I needed to get this off my chest)
(Also even if this isn't him I needed to get this off my chest)
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
Carl what gets my back up is when zoos push conservation as the purpose of zoos. It simply isn't a correct message .There may be some conservation benefits but you have to way that against the cost of hundreds of thousands of animals all over the world kept is usually terrible enclosures. Zoos always claim they invest in situ conservation and a few of the bigger zoos do and still not nearly enough but again for me that does not justify zoos itself If individual zoos actually stated when an animal is not rare or endangered at all or diseased or hybridised or genetically unviable that would be a start. If zoos actually publish how much they put into in situ conservation and had some measure if it was effective that would also be a start.
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
First of all i have no hatred as you suggest my intention is to debate and open a few eyes to the reality of the world. The work above you mention that zoos do which in my opinion is very limited indeed has to justify the existence of zoos in the first place i do not think it does that secondly i can assure you there are countless examples of poor animal welfare in even in the supposedly best zoos. So your argument with respect is naive. We also spend a lot of time teaching people in native areas however i would never suggest you need zoos to do this.thank you for your comment
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
appreciated
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
it is always important to be able to debate issues from different points of views otherwise the world would be in a mess
This is very important, while I completely disagree with Damian Aspinalls view on zoos and conservation, It would be unwise to attack him for it, as someone who has rather outcast political views myself I know what it’s like to be in the receiving end due to a difference in opinion.
Playing devils advocate is important to challenge each others views, debate allows people to grow and a respectful debate should be encouraged.
However, on the topic at hand, in my opinion modern day zoos and wildlife parks are extremely instrumental in conservation imitatives around the globe, although unfortunately some zoos loose sight of the fundamental goals of a zoo, conservation is one of them but so is education, it cannot be overlooked how valuable it is for people to get up and close with misunderstood creatures such as snakes.
Unfortunately some zoos lose sight on both ends of the spectrum, I’ll give an example from a zoo or wildlife park in Melbourne (and surrounds).
A zoo that has lost sight of conservation would be Phillip Island Wildlife Park, with no goals of habitat preservation, captive breeding or anything, this zoo is not a zoo or wildlife park but a non conservation oriented entertainment facility, something which zoos are not.
A zoo that has done the opposite and completely lost sight of education would be Zoos Victoria particularly the management team at Melbourne Zoo, over a decade at least a hundred species have been successfully phased out, some the last of their kind in the country, including educationally and conservationly important ones. It has shaped itself from a zoo to a conservation society that only uses its animals as revenue machines to fuel its conservation.
The right balance needs to be found, an example of a wildlife park or zoo with the right balance would be Moonlit Sanctuary owned by a member of this site. Moonlit has species that vary in numbers both in the wild and in captivity, have cheap and engaging experiences that allow hands on experiences during immersive keeper talks and on their famous night tours inspiring people young and old to protect native wildlife. Conservation wise, I’d say their the most valuable privately owned zoo in the state, committed to the education, habitat preservation, invasive species monitoring, captive breeding and much more. They are unarguably the best privately owned zoo in regards to the survival of the Regent Honeyeater, Orange Bellied Parrot, Swift Parrot and Helmeted Honeyeater.
This is my opinion feel free to debate it as you wish @Damian Aspinall i am intrigued to see your replies.
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
the Ratels are not hybrids both parents are from SA species.FactThey did try, very hard. Without captive assistance the programs would have failed, and that's what factual. Taking the toads into captivity was literally the last ditch attempt to save them after their entire population crashed into eventual extinction.
You obviously don't know much about the Bronx Zoo is you're saying "look at the many millions they waste on terrible enclosures when that money could support the wild"It's pretty much the #1 criticism of the zoo that they hardly build new exhibits and haven't had a major multi-million dollar project in over a decade, largely due to just how much of their money they spend on conservation. An amount, if you really want to talk putting your money where your mouth is, that will no doubt be ten fold what you yourself donate.
Go back and read through my posts to you, questions on animals extinct in the wild, the fact that there are no rhino hybrids in human care (or anyway on Earth afaik), how releasing hybrid Ratels benefits conservation, etc. There are many more.
~Thylo
Secondly your assumption that if millions of $$ is spent on a new enclosure then it must be good is quite frankly naive to say the least and I am proud that we put more into conservation every year than any other zoo in the UK sorry i know you will hate that but its true ..
Lastly you know who i am so unless you tell me your name and where you are from so you can't hide behind a hidden identity the this conversation is over, i don't expect you will which is cowardly to say the least.
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your measured response much appreciated. I have absolutely no doubt that some institutions have come to the realisation that what they were doing was not conservation and have taken steps to correct this as you say in your response and this is definitely a step in the right direction. My concerns even with these institutions which i am sure as you say have the best intentions is twofold, Is it really ok in todays age to keep any animal in captivity because some people after visiting zoos will have a positive view on conservation. I really struggle with this as i believe the price that animals pay for this is just to high as on the whole there welfare in zoos is simply not good enough. Secondly the value of education is thrown about very liberally when i have really not seen any empirical independent evidence that says Zoos educate effectively and especially enough to justify the hundreds of thousands of caged animals in our world. every time someone quotes a study to me after careful reading it is either written by or paid by zoos or summarises that there is no hard evidence to justify zoos purely for education. Lastly if people and children can become fascinated and interested with dinosaurs etc then why is it different for Elephants or any other animal .
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
what we have to consider is whatever you think the zoos have to offer and we can disagree on that is when considering all of that does it justify the hundreds of thousands of animals held in captivity and most of the time help in poor conditions .. i think people really need to think through this question carefully
If we look at a zoo with good enclosure quality this comparison can be made.
Captivity isn’t sunshine and rainbows as some zoo lovers may suggest buts it’s not doom and gloom like you’re suggesting either.
For an animal with a good exhibit, captivity is less of a prison and more of a five star hotel with the flaw of not being able to leave, think about it, they get food, water, toys (enrichment), shelter, healthcare and more except they are limited to the confines within their enclosure.
Compare that to the wild, where yes, animals have a practically unlimited amount of space, they have to deal with diseases, parasites, predators, dehydration, extreme temperatures, starvation and more.
Im not suggesting all animals should be kept in captivity, of course not, that’s an outlandish statement, but I’m trying to prove that it’s not as bad as it seems as long as it’s managed carefully.
Except that this is where Damian’s dilettantism comes crashing down, because there *isn’t* unlimited space or anything remotely like it. His entire premise is a convenient fiction, because the vast majority of species he holds (and continues to draw revenue from, by the by) are not viable without human management and likely never will be again.
Spot on!
Zooplantman
Well-Known Member
Your arguments rest largely on this generalization. Prove it.
Factually, both parents are not from South Africa and, again, if you were the real Damian I'd at least hope you'd know that
I didn't make that assumption, many of Bronx's enclosures are multi-acre stretches of woods or fields fenced in for hoofstock, birds, primates, etc. I'm sure these in and of themselves did not cost millions. YOU were the one that claimed Bronx constantly spends a ton of money on enclosures/exhibits, and I informed you that that's not exactly correct, at which point you have decided to shift the goalpost once again
I'll do some digging into your claim on conservation spending.
I don't see how my personal identity and information is of any concern of yours or at all relevant to the conversation at hand. When you've gone back and answered all of the questions asked to you directly without evading the subject, then maybe I'll take your bait.
~Thylo
There's a very very small accredited zoo that does conservation with wild African Vultures and kestrels yet they don't have either of them. They also have a project where they set up trail cams all over the area to track patterns of wildlife activity in certain areas. So, it's not just the larger zoos, because this zoo is only 5 acres.