Franklin Zoo (Closed) Elephant Kills Woman at Franklin Zoo

Status
Not open for further replies.
felix said:
tony ratcliffe is mila's herd matriarch, there is another who could handle her as well as tony
Click to expand...

????? Frank Boynton ??????

Another matter that needs to be factored into any decision about Jumbo is the position of Helen's heir. What will he/she/they want to do with the elephant?

They will have a very suitable elephant facility in their zoo but no occupant for it if she is exported or euthanised.

I believe that Cadders is correct - the NZSPCA "owns" the elephant. I doubt that they seriously want to see her go - she has been a powerful earner for them.

Cadders, I think that kiwipo was making a tongue in cheek reference to the SPCA and MAF listening carefully to the experts and then doing whatever they want to do anyway. Antipodean humour - needs translating sometimes for you Poms!! And yes, South Africa [from whence kiwipo sprang] is in the Antipodes.

My concern would be more about the agenda of the "experts" that they do choose to listen to. One that has already been mentioned has adopted a rabidly anti-elephant in zoos stance. Another could well be in a conflict of interest position.
At this stage, euthanasia should not be an option for Jumbo - in my opinion.
 
Cadders said:
What a curious and deluded world you live in Kiwipo. Happiness is a wonderful thing and ignorance is bliss. But you base your confidence on the abilities of MAF and the SPCA on what, precisely? You are either a good corporate citizen, toeing the party line, or just incredibly naive. I qualify my comments as coming from the ex-animal welfare investigations manager for MAF and National Chief Inspector of the Royal New Zealand SPCA. And you?
Click to expand...
kiwipo talks a lot of nonsense very often, and he knows full well I'll call him on it when he does (and equally I'll agree with him when he is talking sense), but if you re-read what he wrote in this case he was actually saying just what you yourself have been saying about MaF and the SPCA ;)

EDIT: I just realised Steve in the preceding post already pointed out that kiwipo was being humorous.
 
Helen told me that the ele facility, once vacated, would be used to house excess and breeding stock from the NZ rhino herd - seemed quite upbeat about it actually (more so than I do about having the 'p' taken by you antipodean sons of unmarried parents...)

But euthanasia of Mila would satisfy both the anally retentive risk adverseness of MAF, and the fundamental financial principle of 'charity begins at home' of the SPCA.

So it's a favourite I reckon. If only they can think of a way to get around the justification factor, then Mila is toast. Watch this space then, I guess. (Room for you Kiwis in the toaster if you're feeling a little chilly guys...)
 
Last edited:
Cadders said:
Helen told me that the ele facility, once vacated, would be used to house excess and breeding stock from the NZ rhino herd
Click to expand...

She also started down this track with us as well until I pointed out that FZ was not a member of ZAA and that, although they had applied to join the Association, there was already a shortage of rhinos to meet the demand within the program.

Surplus males from NZ are already well and truly spoken for.

I have not had your experiences with MAF so have no axe to grind with them. In fact I have found them very helpful.


The SPCA are a different kettle of fish. How would the SPCA ever be able to justify the euthanasia of this elephant to the NZ public? Why would they want to see Jumbo euthanised when she has increased their profile and thus earns them money? To suggest [or support] her euthanasia could possibly provoke a backlash against them.
 
Just to clarify, I do not have an axe to grind with MAF, I only comment upon the decision making processes and efficacy of the Ministry based upon my experience of working in MAF. They are not alone and many government departments have the same tedious and risk averse work ethic; this would probably be true throughout the world.
 
Cadders said:
What a curious and deluded world you live in Kiwipo. Happiness is a wonderful thing and ignorance is bliss. But you base your confidence on the abilities of MAF and the SPCA on what, precisely? You are either a good corporate citizen, toeing the party line, or just incredibly naive. I qualify my comments as coming from the ex-animal welfare investigations manager for MAF and National Chief Inspector of the Royal New Zealand SPCA. And you?
Click to expand...

I'm well aware of who your are, and your background including your UK law enforcement experience, so I assume you skim read my post without noticing the sarcasm others did.
However you are right in that I probably overstated the bit where I suggested MAF would listen to advice from experts.
It's always amazed me how people who seem to have no interest or knowledge in animals could get to senior positions in that dept. I can only put it down to the idiotic public service advancement practice which can see people with management and administration experience move from dept to dept in the govt regardless of their actual knowledge of the front line workings of the depts.
Hence you wil get senior management who have no personal knowledge of the front line operations making operational decisions.
As an example, quite a few years ago a MAF manager told me he would prefer to see no zoos and no exotic animals in NZ at all. this wasn't through any desire to stop keeping animals in captivity, or a concern for the welfare of animals. His sole reason was zoos were an extra complication in his paperwork related duties and removing them would simplify his job.
The same person a few years later while in a position of some authority at Fisheries stated that fishery officers didn't need any type of defensive protection equipment because their job was non confrontational and there should never be any time when they were at risk.

Re Tony Ratcliffe, I've only met him a couple of times, on some of those I have found him pleasant, polite, nice to deal with and easy to get on with. On another occasion he was arrogant, abusive and unco-operative. there didn't seem to be any reason for the change in attitude, I was visiting him for the same reasons every time and was supporting him each time, which was appreciated a couple of times and not appreciated a few times. Maybe he got sick of seeing me? I got tired of having to visit him quite quickly.
I was told when Mila first went to franklin he was a regular visitor helping her settle in, but after several confrontations with staff he became unwelcome.
Maybe if he hadn't reportedly got on the wrong side of the staff things would have turned out quite differently.

As it is, what's the harm in letting him back in to have contact with the elephant now. Might as well give him the opportunity to do what he says he can. But realistically, I can't see that happening.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top