Franklin Zoo (Closed) Elephant Kills Woman at Franklin Zoo

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You know who I am Kiwipo, because I don't hide behind a pseudonym and give my details in my profile. I wonder if you feel confident enough to reveal your identity and experience? In order to give credibility to any comment, I would first like to understand the reliability that can be placed upon opinions and commentary from that source.

Tony Ratcliffe, to my knowledge, only went to FZ once after Jumbo's arrival - immediately after her trailer arrived and to remove her chain. No one else could do it. He never visited again. I do not comment at this time on the appropriateness of that situation, merely state it as fact, to the best of my knowledge (unless anyone else knows differently?)
 
Cadders said:
You know who I am Kiwipo, because I don't hide behind a pseudonym and give my details in my profile. I wonder if you feel confident enough to reveal your identity and experience? In order to give credibility to any comment, I would first like to understand the reliability that can be placed upon opinions and commentary from that source.

Tony Ratcliffe, to my knowledge, only went to FZ once after Jumbo's arrival - immediately after her trailer arrived and to remove her chain. No one else could do it. He never visited again. I do not comment at this time on the appropriateness of that situation, merely state it as fact, to the best of my knowledge (unless anyone else knows differently?)
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Sorry, I didn't realise your real name was Cadders, my mistake.

My comments for the most part agree with yours re MAF, are yours actually wrong?
You certainly have become a lot more critical about both MAF and SPCA since you have left those organisations.

I admit I don't know first hand just how many times Tony has been to FZ. I was told by Dr Schofield and her husband some years ago that they were going to ask him not to visit the elephant any more, from that I took it to be that he had been there more than once. He has certainly been to the zoo office more than once, but I don't know how many times he actually got close to the elephant.

My encounters with Tony were some years previous to this when he had both lions and elephants in his circus, and had nothing to do with animal welfare matters.
 
@ Kiwipo: Unless and until you 'come out' I will not respond to any more of your posts. I don't have any particular desire to waste my time with ethereal personae who only feel safe to post comments if their anonymity is secured.
 
Cadders said:
@ Kiwipo: Unless and until you 'come out' I will not respond to any more of your posts. I don't have any particular desire to waste my time with ethereal personae who only feel safe to post comments if their anonymity is secured.
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Ah! David. You could still be such a force for good. Choices mate, it's all about choices - your call.
 
Don't Kiwipo - there is so much more to achieve. I welcome critique and new ideas. NZ animal welfare/husbandry is in a state of flux - the most malleable and creative of all states. Opportunities abound. Catch up some other time, eh?
 
Seems to me to be a death attributable to the animal rights loons. IMHO it sounds like Jumbo should have stayed in the circus or been euth.
 
NZ Jeremy said:
Seems to me to be a death attributable to the animal rights loons. IMHO it sounds like Jumbo should have stayed in the circus or been euth.
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Not at all - her former circus owner is in ill health so that couldn't happen longer term.

Her new circus owners couldn't take her to Australia when they returned there due to there being no current IRA for her species.

Euthanasing a healthy elephant would certainly be immoral and entirely unnecessary.

Donating her to the SPCA gave them a huge PR boost, lots of extra donation dollars and her new circus owners a significant tax write-off.

Had she been worked in Protected Contact this thread would not be here.

In my own humble opinion I can't see any problem with leaving her at Franklin - providing Helen's heirs want her, of course.

She has a magnificent, purpose built facility there, she can be handled PC quite safely, she is used to being on her own - indeed she may now be incompatible with other elephants. There would be no benefit in shipping her all the way to America to find that she would have been better off left in NZ. She is over 30 years old so, despite what the "experts" from the AR movement tell us, she really doesn't have too many years left.

One person's opinion.
 
NZ Jeremy said:
Seems to me to be a death attributable to the animal rights loons. IMHO it sounds like Jumbo should have stayed in the circus or been euth.
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I'll have to agree with Steve's post above and in my opinion, without wanting to sound disrespectful of Helen, her death was nobody's fault but her own. The elephant should have been strictly Protected Contact. That is how she was supposed to be being kept at the zoo. Helen should not have been going into the enclosure with her at all.
 
Jarkari said:
PAWS has started fundraising to bring over this "killer elephant"
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Isn't a shame that it is all about money?

Being a "killer elephant" should boost their profile and their bank balance.

If she ultimately doesn't go to PAWS do the donors get their money back???
 
Steve Robinson said:
Not at all - her former circus owner is in ill health so that couldn't happen longer term.

Her new circus owners couldn't take her to Australia when they returned there due to there being no current IRA for her species.

Euthanasing a healthy elephant would certainly be immoral and entirely unnecessary.

Donating her to the SPCA gave them a huge PR boost, lots of extra donation dollars and her new circus owners a significant tax write-off.

Had she been worked in Protected Contact this thread would not be here.

In my own humble opinion I can't see any problem with leaving her at Franklin - providing Helen's heirs want her, of course.

She has a magnificent, purpose built facility there, she can be handled PC quite safely, she is used to being on her own - indeed she may now be incompatible with other elephants. There would be no benefit in shipping her all the way to America to find that she would have been better off left in NZ. She is over 30 years old so, despite what the "experts" from the AR movement tell us, she really doesn't have too many years left.

One person's opinion.
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Well said.

My opinion also.

Regarding donation money......
If you donate $$$$$ for the well being of an animal, then, whatever the outcome, you should have no problem with the $$$$$$$$ being spent on the well being of that, or any other animal !
 
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Steve Robinson said:
So, will the donors get their dough back if Jumbo doesn't go there?
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No mention of that, however i think you suspect just as much as i do that refunding donations would not happen. Even rumours of TB should be enough to discourage a move to PAWS. Surely if they really were thinking in the best interests of Jumbo then some of that $3 million difference could be spent on her transport.

I agree that it is in jumbos best interest to stay at Franklin. In my short time in Sri Lanka i witnessed two deaths (one human and one elephant) when trying to introduce a very workable but also very humanised elephant to a sanctuary environment.
 
I thought at the early stages when Mila first went to Franklin Zoo they were talking about sending her to a sanctuary in Tennessee, now it's PAWS. Does anyone know the difference or why the change?
 
Nope. When the gang of four (Me - SPCA, Helen - FZ, the Aussies, and SAFE) first met, Tennessee it was. The there was a God almighty spat between my boss and Helen over who actually owned the elephant and it all went a bit vague from there. I kind of accepted that Mila wasn't going anywhere; I think we all did.
 
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