European elephants

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jelle said:
Zoos - in particular in eastern Europe - are not cooperating with the Asian Elephant EEP. F.i. Kiev and Perm Zoos both have a proven bull. The current EEP requires additional unrelated breeding bulls (sometimes to replace currently non-functioning breeding groups - e.g. Muenster).

How is the Species Coordinator influencing these challenges? :confused:
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I am quite confused as well , there are some cases of when bulls that are proven breeders are sent to non-breeding facilities,
Like you said such as Perm with the bull elephant John,
Emmen Zoo, in 2003 said in quite a number of news articles that they were moving their 23 year old bull at the time Naing Thein, because his daughter Mingalar Oo was going to be used for breeding. Then he was sent to Prague zoo. He does have 12 living offspring. So i first thought he was moving because he had enough offspring according to the EEP standards. But Prague zoo actually tried to breed the young stud with two females!:

Preya, now in Ameins and Shanti.
Why do they sent a young bull breeder to a zoo with a low chance in reproduces, yet they still try to breed? Why not send to Ustí n. Labem?
Hope i'm not getting on anyones bad side,
 
MARK said:
Untbwe, do they ever bring in outside females to breed to him?, He is such an impressive bull :cool:
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No, Emmen has not the facilities for guest elephants. And besides Radza is living amongst the females, he does'nt use his own enclosure. In fact, the bulls house is closed. So a guest elephant is not an option for this large and complex herd.

And Khaing Lwin Htoo indeed had a stillbirth on July 9, 1998

@Jelle:
I noticed that there is a new trend in Western Europe zoos to realize bulls exhibits. For example Dierenrijk near Eindhoven who is building a new elephants exhibit right now. They will keep only three bulls, and the first two are Kan Kaung and Than Myan of Emmen. I also heard of some German zoos who will make bulls exhibits.

But your're right there are two many zoos with only one or two (older) females or with mixed species or just one bull:

Erevan (Armenia) 1.0 Em (12)
Sofia (Bulgaria) 0.1 Em (45)
Givskud (Danmark) 0.2 Em (both 38)
Cottbus (Germany) 0.2 Em (39 + 41)
Heidelberg (Germany) 0.2 Em (24 + 40)
Karlsruhe (Germany) 0.2 Em (51 + 52)
Magdeburg (Germany) 0.1 La (25) + 0.1 Em (38)
Neunkirchen (Germany) 0.2 Em (40 + 51)
Amiens (France) 0.2 Em (30 + 34)
La Barben (France) 0.2 Em (33 + 40)
La Teste (France) 1.0 La (22)
Maubeuge (France) 0.2 Em (both 34)
Naples (Italy) 0.1 Em (?)
Pistoia (Italy) 0.2 Em (both 36)
Rome (Italy) 0.2 Em (both 37)
Walding (Austria) 0.2 Em (36 + 39)
Breslau (Poland) 0.1 Em (45)
Danzig (Poland) 0.1 La (38) + 0.1 Em (42)
Kattowitz (Poland) 0.2 La (both 20)
Krakau (Poland) 0.2 Em (28 + 47)
Lodz (Poland) 0.2 Em (47 + 48)
Plock (Poland) 1.0 Em (9)
Jekaterineburg (Russia) 0.1 Em (26)
Kaliningrad (Russia) 0.1 Em (36)
Perm (Russia) 1.0 Em (43)
Kolmarden (Sweden) 0.2 Em (9 + 10)
Belgrad (Serbia) 0.1 Em (41)
Palic (Serbia) 0.1 Em (33)
Bojnice (Slovak) 0.2 La (both 25)
Ljubljana (Slovenia) 0.1 Em (32)
Barcelona (Spain) 0.2 La (27 + 45)
Cordoba (Spain) 0.1 Em (37)
El Vendrell (Spain) 0.2 La (both 39)
El Vergal (Spain) 2.0 La (both 10)
Elche (Spain) 0.1 Em (35)
Jerez (Spain) 0.1 La (22)
Madrid (Spain) 0.2 Em (37 + 39)
Mallorca (Spain) 0.2 Em (both 42)
Valwo (Spain) 0.2 Em (37 + 47)
Liberec (Czech) 0.2 Em (43 + 44)
Ostrau (Czech) 0.2 Em (36 + 46)
Usti nad lebem (Czech) 0.2 Em (21 + 23)
Ankara (Turkey) 0.1 La (35)
Izmir (Turkey) 0.1 Em (11)
Kiew (Ukrain) 1.0 Em (38)
Nikolajew (Ukrain) 0.1 La (31)
Budapest (Hungary) 0.2 Em (38 + 40)
Termez (Uzbekistan) 0.1 Em (39)

A total of 4.0 Em, 55 0.1 Em, 3.0 La and 13 .01 La. These are all elephants who don't breed (or to old for breeding). There are also some zoos with three elephants. Thus there are many potential breeding elephants who are not breeding!
 
Not all current captive born zoo elephants will be used in the EEP breeding right? (In fact since the trade in the 1990's between American and European zoos, there has been no elephant bull transfers,)

In cases where a bull has many male offspring example Naing Thein, not every single one will be used for breeding right? So if some zoos intend to have bull facilities, what will happen when the bulls become fully grown? Are zoos making room for them?
Don't mean to be a wet blanket but i'm so confused. :confused:
 
dragon(ele)nerd said:
Not all current captive born zoo elephants will be used in the EEP breeding right? (In fact since the trade in the 1990's between American and European zoos, there has been no elephant bull transfers,)

In cases where a bull has many male offspring example Naing Thein, not every single one will be used for breeding right? So if some zoos intend to have bull facilities, what will happen when the bulls become fully grown? Are zoos making room for them?
Don't mean to be a wet blanket but i'm so confused. :confused:
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That's right. The male offspring of Naing Thein is young but until today only two bulls (out of 10) have te opportunity for mating females, however they are still young. The male offspring of this bull:

Bo Gyi †
Kan Yome †
Ant Bwe Lay (13), lives in Pont Scorff with two females of 12 and 38 years old.
Aung Naing Lay (10), lives in Kharkiv with one female of the same age.
Tsje Pyan (10), lives in a bulls exhibit in Sevilla
Maung Htoo (10), lives in a bulls exhibit in Sevilla
Aung Bo (6), lives in a bulls exhibit in Sevilla
Aung Si (6), lives in a bulls exhibit in Sevilla
Kan Kaung (5), goes to a bulls exhibit in Dierenrijk near Eindhoven
Than Myan (5), goes to a bulls exhibit in Dierenrijk near Eindhoven
Letsongmon is only 3 years old and lives in Emmen

So, the genes of Naing Thein is not much spread today by his sons, and most are still to young for breeding. But they are part of the EEP and in the future the EEP-holder (Rotterdam Zoo) can decide to use some of them for breeding.

Bulls transfers between Europe and America are rare but within Europe we have seen some the past year: Alexander of Rotterdam went to Antwerp, and later to Amersfoort. Sammy of Amersfoort was going to Rotterdam. Aung Bo and Aung Si of Cologne are now in Sevilla. Timber of Sevilla is now standing in Rotterdam, and recently Nikolai of Amsterdam was transported to Hannover (he is one of the rare transfers from America to Europe; he was born in Rockton, Canada, and came to Europe in 1999)

Only Aung Bo and Aung Si are not for breeding purposes send away.

Kan Kaung and Than Myan of Emmen are also scheduled for transfer but also not for breeding for the near future.

The genes of Naing Thein by his daughters is also not much; he only got three (Mingalar Oo, Ma Palai, and May Yay Yee). They are still living in Emmen. Mingalar Oo has one calf of Radza (Myo Set Kaung) and the two others are coming at the age that Radza can mate them.

Conclusion: In spite of the large offspring of 14 calfs, only 5 of them are able to spread the genes of Naing Thein.
 
Untbwe, Thank you for all your Euro elephant input, your photos of Radza are wonderful Cheers
 
So intelligent you are UntBwe, I'm sorry if i'm berading you with questions.
(Tell me if i am.) I've been "googling" but no luck, have you any idea when Alexander will actually go to Sevilla? I fact when he went to Antwerp last year
many sites (inculding olifantenhuis) said that he would move to a non-breeding facility, in this case Sevilla, But he has moved to Amersfoort will this be his last stop?

Also "Zoosih" told me the other told that certain zoos breed with only the same subspecies of elephants, where were Motek and Warda born?
 
Dragon(ele) heart, you are again asking a question no one here can really answer, only time will tell. Alex`transfer to Amersfoort is a very good example that plans within the elephant EEP will change at short notice! Yes, Alex was originally scheduled to go to a non breeding facility as "teacher" for young boisterous bulls. But then Amersfoort had the idea that they could use him for breeding as Sammy was still not able to mate the adult females, and I do not think anyone here has reliable information about if and when Alex will leave Amersfoort!! They won`t let him go before a good number of the 4 females are pregnant, and no pregnancies are confirmed at the moment. I guess at the moment the plan is to send him to a non breeding facility, but maybe next year another zoo - like Amersfoort last autum - decides to take him temporarily or permanently, as he virtually guarantees breeding sucess?

Only time will tell, please keep that in mind before asking so many questions.
 
One more thing, it seems at the moment that Amersfoort really wants Sammy back which means Alex will go to another zoo once he has fulfilled his "task" in Amersfoort, but even this could change (not very likely, though).
 
Yassa said:
One more thing, it seems at the moment that Amersfoort really wants Sammy back which means Alex will go to another zoo once he has fulfilled his "task" in Amersfoort, but even this could change (not very likely, though).
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That's the only right conclusion for now. Amerfoort is still waiting for 100% succes rate for all females. That Sammy is returning to Amersfoort is a fact, but only when Alex left the zoo.

Today I heard that the planning for the move of Than Myan and Kan Kaung to Dierenrijk will not before September this year.
 
UntBwe said:
That's the only right conclusion for now. Amerfoort is still waiting for 100% succes rate for all females. That Sammy is returning to Amersfoort is a fact, but only when Alex left the zoo.

Today I heard that the planning for the move of Than Myan and Kan Kaung to Dierenrijk will not before September this year.
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Have you got the link? or did you hear somewhere else?
 
I think Radza is going to miss the two rascals, they seem to do a lot with him. Emmen is probably the most successful zoo in the netherlands when it comes to elephant breeding, at the moment. I wish Melbourne had regular births. The herd hasn't been this big since 2003. But 4 of them moved to Colonge. While two leave another one could come, a word doc i opened up randomly said that Mingalar Oo is pregnant. I don't think this is definately the case, though i Radza comes in contact with the herd extremly often.
 
Since Emmen is not testing the elephants, the caregivers can not tell if an elephant is pregnant or not until the last months. Mingalar Oo had her (first) calf three years ago, so theoretical is it possible for her to be pregnant again.

I'm hoping for Yu Zin. :)
 
So am, 6 years ago since she gave birth. Hope she can have another calf by she comes out of prime breeding age. She is the only grown cow not to have a calf with Radza, Perhaps she doesn't like him? Matriachs and high rank older cows, sometimes really despise sire bulls? But Annabel seems to get along with him.

Do you know the Translation for Yu Zin's name? something like pure is it? (from Swe Zin: pure gold)
 
UntBwe Would you say the Emmen exhibit in large enough for this growing herd or do they have any plans to extend it, maybe Radza may need an exhibit only for himself because of the sheer size of him LOL
 
MARK said:
UntBwe Would you say the Emmen exhibit in large enough for this growing herd or do they have any plans to extend it, maybe Radza may need an exhibit only for himself because of the sheer size of him LOL
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The present exhibit was build for 15 elephants, there ar now 16, but 2 of them will leave the zoo later this year.

The zoo is making plans for a new to build park and the new elephants exhibit will 3 or 4 times larger then the present one. They have plans to make a separate bulls exhibit. So Radza will get his own exhibit...
 
UntBwe said:
The present exhibit was build for 15 elephants, there ar now 16, but 2 of them will leave the zoo later this year.

The zoo is making plans for a new to build park and the new elephants exhibit will 3 or 4 times larger then the present one. They have plans to make a separate bulls exhibit. So Radza will get his own exhibit...
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Thats great news, Just in regards to Radza would you know of any Asian bulls in the SSP that are close to his size and weight? :cool:
 
MARK said:
Thats great news, Just in regards to Radza would you know of any Asian bulls in the SSP that are close to his size and weight? :cool:
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No, all other bulls have the normal weight of 4000 - 6000 kilograms but Radza is 7200 kilograms! Perhaps there is another elephant a bit larger then average but I don't know which one.
 
I don't find Radza's posture very impressive though, he always puts his hind legs right near his front legs and dips his behind. Some people think it's because first of all his head is rather large, but mostly because he has to balance the immense weight of his tusks.

This does mean he looks a bit like a circus elephant, balancing on a small round step. His head also looks out of proportion to the rest of his body. For me, Alexander is a far more impressive animal because he's a lot higher on his feet. Best prospect however for me is Sammy, he's going to be a very handsome animal in about 10 years time (VERY high on his feet, and a normal set of tusks).
 
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