it has been mentioned by lintworm when Köln’s work with red howlers was mentioned:
European (Tea)Cup - League C - Beauval vs Cologne
- Thread starter TeaLovingDave
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it has been mentioned by lintworm when Köln’s work with red howlers was mentioned:
Kalaw
Well-Known Member
Of the two I have only been to Beauval, and that was before the Dome and the South American Aviary opened. Köln looks excellent as well, but I am slightly leaning towards the French collection here. And that isn't because of species numbers (I agree that when both collections are so large, one zoo being ahead is barely notable), just that I really love everything that Beauval has on offer in this category.
The lemur and colobus islands near the entrance are gorgeous, offer tremendous height with mature trees, and are the perfect introduction to the zoo. The row of enclosures in Monkey Pathways (when I visited, they had the far better name of 'Primates Peculiarities') are really charming - rows of sizable, enriching cages for really interesting monkey taxa, including Moustached Guenons, backdropped by the gorgeous woodland that covers the central half of the zoo. I also really liked all the ape enclosures, in particular the green and lively chimpanzee island, although in hindsight the orangutan one is quite limited in terms of climbing. All of the other enclosures throughout the zoo were really nicely done, too. The two langur cages near the pandas struck me as very spacious and well-designed, again with the surrounding nature enhancing the scenery, and I love the huge, grassy lawns for more terrestrial species like Barbary and Lion-tailed Macaques. Since my visit, things seem to have only gotten better with the arrival of doucs in the Dome whose enclosure looks rather nice.
It has been mentioned upthread that Beauval's enclosures lack vertical height and climbing. Perhaps I am underestimating how much height is needed, but it seems to me that other than the orangutans and perhaps the howlers in the new aviary (but even then it looks sufficient, difficult to get a sense from photos) all the primates at Beauval are very well-catered for in their climbing needs. Would be interested to hear more about this. Unless I am missing something, then I would echo what @pipaluk said in Beauval's previous thread about how people tend to assume that Beauval's enclosures all have some sort of deeper issues below surface level just because a few of them do. To reiterate, I don't want to sound hostile here, and would be happy if proven wrong. Either way I feel as though whatever these issues are, with the caveat that I haven't been to Köln myself, they cannot be worse than the almost complete lack of climbing and space in those outdoor cages of Köln's Madagascan house or the overstocking of their baboon island...
All that said, this really is a phenomenally close tie. Looking at photos, several of Köln's offerings look really impressive, in particular the South American House. I hadn't heard of that exhibit prior to this thread, and it has certainly climbed up my zoo exhibit bucket list! A historic, architectural marvel with a modern interior, balancing animal and guest needs. Definitely shouldn't be more than a 3-2 in either direction, I think.
The lemur and colobus islands near the entrance are gorgeous, offer tremendous height with mature trees, and are the perfect introduction to the zoo. The row of enclosures in Monkey Pathways (when I visited, they had the far better name of 'Primates Peculiarities') are really charming - rows of sizable, enriching cages for really interesting monkey taxa, including Moustached Guenons, backdropped by the gorgeous woodland that covers the central half of the zoo. I also really liked all the ape enclosures, in particular the green and lively chimpanzee island, although in hindsight the orangutan one is quite limited in terms of climbing. All of the other enclosures throughout the zoo were really nicely done, too. The two langur cages near the pandas struck me as very spacious and well-designed, again with the surrounding nature enhancing the scenery, and I love the huge, grassy lawns for more terrestrial species like Barbary and Lion-tailed Macaques. Since my visit, things seem to have only gotten better with the arrival of doucs in the Dome whose enclosure looks rather nice.
It has been mentioned upthread that Beauval's enclosures lack vertical height and climbing. Perhaps I am underestimating how much height is needed, but it seems to me that other than the orangutans and perhaps the howlers in the new aviary (but even then it looks sufficient, difficult to get a sense from photos) all the primates at Beauval are very well-catered for in their climbing needs. Would be interested to hear more about this. Unless I am missing something, then I would echo what @pipaluk said in Beauval's previous thread about how people tend to assume that Beauval's enclosures all have some sort of deeper issues below surface level just because a few of them do. To reiterate, I don't want to sound hostile here, and would be happy if proven wrong. Either way I feel as though whatever these issues are, with the caveat that I haven't been to Köln myself, they cannot be worse than the almost complete lack of climbing and space in those outdoor cages of Köln's Madagascan house or the overstocking of their baboon island...
All that said, this really is a phenomenally close tie. Looking at photos, several of Köln's offerings look really impressive, in particular the South American House. I hadn't heard of that exhibit prior to this thread, and it has certainly climbed up my zoo exhibit bucket list! A historic, architectural marvel with a modern interior, balancing animal and guest needs. Definitely shouldn't be more than a 3-2 in either direction, I think.
The exhibit is bigger than it looks from the photograph posted upthread, and a *lot* less crowded than it once was - I believe that numbers have dropped to less than 40% of what they were five years ago.
Still not fantastic, of course, but I can easily turn your remark (with minor edits) around and suggest that it isn't excusable for the great ape exhibits at Beauval to fall short of the mark when they are located far outside from any urban areas which would place constraints on size and exhibit design, especially when the great ape exhibits at Cologne surpass them despite being very much under said constraints
Compare and contrast the Beauval chimpanzee island with the Cologne bonobo exhibit:
Firstly, at least some of the outdoor exhibits *do* contain natural substrate, and secondly, I think it's a bit silly to complain about the existence of the large round cages (and suggest they are an active detriment to the whole) given the fact that they serve as extensions to the existing outdoor exhibits; if they were not there, I imagine you'd be complaining about the lack of space and outdoor climbing opportunities (as others have paradoxically done)!
ZTL suggests there may have been a single birth in 2024, but otherwise I am given to understand the Douc are more or less displaying the same trend as the Chleby import of dwindling down rapidly.
Again, it's a bit odd for people to complain about the lack of outdoor climbing and space in the outdoor Madagascan exhibits when others are complaining that they have been *given* said space and climbing opportunities
Unfortunately I'm not at home presently, so can't provide better photographs of the outdoor lemur exhibits than those already present in the gallery - and there are precious few of those.
Which, as already noted by myself and @lintworm , has already been significantly ameliorated and is continuing to head in that direction
certainly its no more overstocked than any other equivalent exhibit in the Cup.Attachments
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Kalaw
Well-Known Member
I struggle to see how the Beauval ape enclosures do fall short of the mark, other than the fact that the climbing apparatus in the orangutan enclosure is somewhat restrictive and doesn't allow the animals to travel too far without touching the ground. The chimpanzee enclosure which you site, for instance, measures just over 1,300 sqm. To provide a reference point that you have seen in person and are familiar with, the Chester island is 1,700 sqm, so I don't think size is an issue at Beauval. In terms of height and climbing, it is difficult to get a sense of scale from photos of Köln's bonobo enclosure, but it seems to me that there is around the same on offer at Beauval. Of course, Köln does have one tremendous advantage in its dense foliage and therefore privacy, when all Beauval really has in that regard are some small bushes, the shade cast by the trees and rather unattractive boulders. It is entirely possible that Köln's enclosure is better, and I won't comment on that debate having not seen it in person, but I think saying that Beauval's enclosures aren't excusable and fall short of the mark is a hugely unfair exaggeration, and I would even say they are rather good.
You somewhat misunderstand my point I think
I'm not saying the exhibits themselves are inexcusable - and agree that in terms of European ape exhibits they do seem to be pretty good - but rather that given the massive amount of space and money which Beauval has to hand, they fall far short of the mark they could and should have reached - with the fact that Cologne manages to have superior exhibits despite being constrained by several factors which do not impact Beauval compounding this point.As for the specific use of the word "inexcusable" this was because I was paraphrasing the remarks by Panda_Fan and didn't want to change his wording *too* much!
Again, it's a bit odd for people to complain about the lack of outdoor climbing and space in the outdoor Madagascan exhibits when others are complaining that they have been *given* said space and climbing opportunities
I'm not sure anyone can in good conscience look at the 'outdoor' lemur exhibits at Koeln (especially those without access to the ball cages) and think they are any good. For me, it remains that, purely on the basis of the baboon and lemur exhibits, I would (not by much, mind) rather be a primate in Beauval than at Koeln, purely given the odds that I'd be stuck on an overstocked rock or in something that bears a striking resemblance to a bathroom.
As for the baboons it's clear that things are going in the right direction, but at least on my visit the situation did not appear to be in a good place - admittedly I am no expert. I think again it's a case of there might be will to change the situation for the better, but it's not necessarily applicable to this if there remains overstocking.
It's definitely a situation of the best at Koeln being probably better than what's at Beauval, but then on the flip side the worst at Koeln being leagues worse than the worst in Beauval. For me that's made the difference.
Panda_Fan
Well-Known Member
Well then, good arguments there @TeaLovingDave! I won't change my vote, but there's some good points there. Even if it's bigger a barren and old-stile enclosure for a monkey is not comparable to what seems a exhibit that could be potentially expanded, even tho I see no problem with it (maybe some more plants would help, but even then it's perfect as it is). As for the madagascar house, I thought that the round-shaped cages was all they got as an oustide space, and because they don't touch the ground (or that's how it seems with the image provided) that no natural substrate was there, but that's my fault by assuming something I didn't know. Even then, if we use what you said about the chimp habitat at Beauval, it's "inexcusable" (really getting fond of this word ) for a zoo like Cologne to have those habitats when they have the space to improve them (or so it seems at the photo). Even then, as person that hasn't visited the zoos, I do apologise when I make claims that are made by judging photos and they turn out to be false.
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) for a zoo like Cologne to have those habitats when they have the space to improve them (or so it seems at the photo). Even then, as person that hasn't visited the zoos, I do apologise when I make claims that are made by judging photos and they turn out to be false.Edit:
Also, I never said that I didn't like the house for not having outdoor habitats, I said that I didn't like that it didn't had natural substrate (even tho I know now that they do have some). Primates can have good indoor habitats with natural substrate.
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Further to this, I've checked with my sources and current numbers are 1,2,1 - which is down from a population just over three years ago of 3,5.
I'm almost getting the vibe that these langurs are one of those species that are very difficult to keep in captivity outside their home range.
Funnily enough, the only European collection to have prolonged and sustained success with the species was actually Cologne, which kept (and regularly bred) Douc from 1968 until 2019... and even then, once other collections ceased to show an interest in working with the species and new blood ceased to come into the Cologne population, they dwindled to nothing at a fairly rapid rate.The last survivor was born in 2008 and died (as noted) in 2019, so lifespans weren't fantastic by the end either.
I do enjoy these matches where I have visited both zoos.
Agree with all this. Beauval's outdoor ape exhibits are all good and probably better than Cologne's. The indoor areas are at worst average.
The baboon rock really is a stain of the zoo for Cologne, 10 baboons and maybe it would be just about average. Paignton's baboon rock is much better than Cologne's but they are getting rid of theirs (at some point!). If Cologne want to keep the number of baboons they do currently they need a better exhibit.
The Lemur house at Cologne is below average as well I would suggest.
Nothing at Beauval is as bad as those two exhibits, so Beauval win on quantity and quality for me
It is mainly the chimps, orangutans and S-American primates in the ape house & aviary where this is an issue. The islands around the entrance certainly not. Beauval is one of many zoos that equate small monkeys (marmosets & tamarins) with small enclosures that often lack height, whereas these species tend to do best when given a lot more height.
For apes space alone is not much of a factor (just look at Basel). It is what you do with it that matters. The chimpanzee outdoor exhibit in Beauval really is just an open space with little structure and 0 privacy (and a rather steep drop to a water moat...). It has guests on 3 sides and from basically any point in the island, a chimpanzee can overlook the whole island. For chimps, a species that behaves in a fission-fusion group, privacy from each other is paramount. Beauval's outdoor exhibit offers none of that, compare that with the bonobo in Cologne...
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
These are some insanely close poll results, which I understand as the two seem pretty neck and neck to me! I wonder what makes @Sneeuwpanter love Beauval's and/or hate Cologne's primate exhibits so much.
It's also worth noting that new (higher) climbing gear has been constructed in Beauval's orang enclosure since the photos in the thread, making it a lot better suited to both species present.
Having rooted out my photographs of the outdoor exhibits (given the fact the only image so far provided views them at a distance and significant angle) I stand by my assertion that you're being a bit unfair about their quality, especially now that significantly fewer species are held and they have access to multiple exhibits each. Certainly I'm a bit worried if your bathroom looks like this:
From memory, the pair of Sclater's Lemur have access to these.
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Panda_Fan
Well-Known Member
Great photo and it realy shows that the Madagascar house isn't as bad as I thought! But that begs the question of why have those ball-shaped cages when these exhibits exist (do all lemurs have access to this type of exhibits?). It only ruins the image of a perfectly good house, with very rare animals, and if not for those cages I would have considered Cologne (tho the baboon rock is still a factor that gives Beauval the edge).
Really can't believe this is as close as it is. I think this is more than a 3-2 in favour Beauval but maybe not 4-1 but certainly don't think it is a Cologne 3-2! Baboon rock and the lemur house are bad compared to anything at Beauval
Again, I think it's a bit weird to mark the collection down for a move taken in order to provide extra space for the inhabitants
and hence indicate you'd give the collection more credit if it provided less space; at least the arguments from those that think the cages and outdoor exhibits taken together are poor have some sort of consistency!
Panda_Fan
Well-Known Member
Maybe they're functional and they give space for their inhabitants, but I doubt some platforms are going to make a difference with space, and I as I have stated before it only hurts the image of what seems as a very good house. It may sound bad, but if space is realy the problem to demolish those cages, then why not expand upon them? I just don't think the cages do any favour to Cologne, and I doubt someone would say that the exhibit is bad if it didn't had the cages.Again, I think it's a bit weird to mark the collection down for a move taken in order to provide extra space for the inhabitants
A satisfyingly close match with plenty of discussion and debate; note that due to the complete lack of any explanation or reasoning for the 5:0 vote from @Sneeuwpanter it was excluded from consideration.
Beauval - 66/130 points - 50.769%
Cologne - 64/130 points - 49.231%
Again.... if you want to vote against the grain you need to provide proper explanation for your vote (and if it is especially against the grain, it also has to be a satisfactory and well-grounded explanation) otherwise it will be discounted entirely.
Beauval - 66/130 points - 50.769%
Cologne - 64/130 points - 49.231%
Again.... if you want to vote against the grain you need to provide proper explanation for your vote (and if it is especially against the grain, it also has to be a satisfactory and well-grounded explanation) otherwise it will be discounted entirely.