European (Tea)Cup - League C - Beauval vs London & Whipsnade

[TeaLovingDave]

A final chance for the ZSL collections to prove themselves, against a French collection whose star has risen somewhat in the past few years and is oft-lauded by members of this community - and the category at hand is a nice broad one which provides plenty of scope for personal interpretation and (I hope) will produce a vibrant and active discussion: ASIA.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Provisionally parking my vote in favour of the ZSL collections given the range of category-relevant exhibits and species, and the generally high quality of the aforementioned exhibits - but giving two points to Beauval in light of what I know of the collection and its offerings in this regard.

Open to being swayed in either direction, naturally.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

*note that this has absolutely nothing to do with Nile Hippos
I haven't really participated in much of the matches but for this one, I'd have to give it to Beauval 3-2 because I love their really nice Asian exhibits. Though Whipsnade has some nice ones too, ZSL just is no competition to Beauval and combining them together, I personally think that both should have nice, large exhibits for Asia. I particularly like Beauval's Asian Elephant and Indian Rhinoceros exhibits, as well as having Giant Pandas. I also like the skyride that takes you from the African area to the Asian area of the zoo. However, I must recognize that Whipsnade has a drive-through Asian exhibit for animals like yak, barasingha, camels, and the extinct-in-the-wild Pere David's Deer. They also have a walking trail to see classic zoo species like elephants and rhinos which is also quite great. I would consider Whipsnade and Beauval almost 1 to 1 on which one is better, but while I do like their nice Tiger and Komodo Dragon exhibits, ZSL's Asian section simply doesn't feel too insanely great in my opinion, but considering Whipsnade's awesome Passage Through Asia exhibit, my final vote is 3-2 in favor of Beauval.

 

[SivatheriumGuy]

Beauval's Asian Elephant

Beauval has African elephants, just pointing this out.

 

[twilighter]

Both Beauval and ZSL were part of very interesting discussions so far and expect the same here, because this is a very close call.

The high quality of the following exhibits at Beauval was mentioned before:
Heights of China - Giant Panda, two Takin species, Snow Leopard, Red Panda, Reeves Muntjac and Steller Sea Eagle
Asiatic Plains - Indian Rhino/Chital/Nilgai/Blackbuck and Malayan Tapir/Hog Deer/Reeve's Muntjac
There are two very high and heavily planted exhibits at the same area for Fishing cat and Hanuman Langurs. And two similar exposition for Javan Langurs and Clouded leopard not so far away. The Goodfellow’s Tree-kangaroo is also close by.
The Sumatran Tiger and Persian leopards exhibits have been refurbished, but can't compare with the Sumatran Tigers at London or the Siberian Tigers at Whipsnade.

Gibbon Island and Orangutan Islands are solid, while the Orangutan indoor Greenhouse that they share with Chimpanzees start to show it's age.
At the Tropical house there are very special gem - Red-shanked Douc Langurs. Also Tomistoma, Komodo Dragons and few rare Chelonians.

Bird collection is extensive and can be seen partly at: the Bird Show, central alley new bird exhibits( like Himalaya), Tropical Greenhouses. Birds of Pray aviaries , Duck river, etc






London has some famous signature exhibits - Land of Lions, Komodo Dragon House, Sumatran tiger Teritory and Blackburn Pavilion and species like Babirusa, Small Indian Mongoose , Chinese giant salamander and Javan Green Magpie.

But actually the real strength of ZSL lies into the vast Asia zone at Whipsnade.
Drive-trough area and enormous paddocks with Barasingha, Blackbuck, Nilgai, Japanese Sika, Hog Deer, Pare David's Deer and Przewalski Horses. All Asian Giants - Asian Elephants, Indian Rhinos, Indian Gaur and Siberian Tigers are living in unquestionable of their size facilities .

Whipsnade showcase their support to Indonesia Action Plan with the newly opened Monkey forest with Sulawesi Macaque and Anoa. They brought back the Bantengs and Babirusas as well.
Francois Langur is another special arrival. Free roaming Chinese Water Deers are also a nice touch.

Again very difficult call. I am slightly lining towards ZSL, but can change my mind.

 

[Kalaw]

This has the potential to be a real thriller of a match, as both zoos have so much of excellence in this category.

Having visited both ZSL zoos several times over the years, and Beauval just once in 2019, I am familiar with both participants, although more so with one than with the other. I feel as though ZSL has a very small edge here, and will be providing an overview to reflect this.

I will begin with what Whipsnade has to offer. Whipsnade is actually geographically arranged, with an expansive Asian zone covering the eastern half of the zoo, the largest such zone at the collection.

Whipsnade:

Passage through Asia:
A pair of massive drive-through paddocks, the first for a selection of Asian deer measures 16.6 hectares (41 acres), while the second for Bactrian Camels and a breeding herd of Przewalski's Horses is 9.7 hectares (24 acres). They are fairly simple in design, but remarkably picturesque. In particular, the first drive-through with the deer benefits from a pair of gorgeous lakes, the undulating terrain, and the very impressive size of the deer herds.

@ro6ca66 - depicting Blackbuck in the first paddock.

@ro6ca66 - depicting Fallow Deer in the first drivethrough.

@LaughingDove - overview of the first drive-through. Off the top of my head, Pére David's Deer, Sika Deer, Blackbuck, Barashinga and Fallow Deer are kept here, although there are also plenty of Chinese Water Deer, technically free-roamers with access to the whole zoo, but preferring to reside here.

Centre for Elephant Care:

@Dr. Loxodonta - the main paddock for the zoo's herd of Asian Elephants. At 1.8 hectares (4.5 acres) and with almost comprehensive grass coverage, several suspended feeders and mud wallows for enrichment, is probably one of the better enclosures for the species in Europe.

@MagpieGoose - indoors for the elephants. Thick sand substrate, a myriad of feeders and a separation area, it is again fantastic and combined with the outdoors makes for one of Europe's very best elephant complexes. Only slight weakness is the bull paddock. At 2,700 sqm (0.7 acres), it isn't too small, but isn't that big either, and has little to no grass.

Monkey Forest:
The zoo's newest exhibit, opening in March 2024. Here, Sulawesi Crested Macaques have a pair of massive enclosures featuring a genuine forest of mature trees, one of which they share with Lowland Anoa, for what is surely one of the largest and best-landscaped primate enclosures in Europe. Granted, on my sole visit since the complex opened, the macaques were a little dull, but I have heard from others that they can be lively and have even made use of the trees. There is also a very large (former Sloth Bear) enclosure for Francois' Langurs and Babirusa which is also really nicely done.

Per Google maps, the combined area of the two macaque enclosures is 7,700 sqm (1.9 acres), and the langur enclosure is 5,400 sqm (1.3 acres). The indoor portions for both species are quite large with a reasonably good amount of climbing, too.

@Dr. Loxodonta - the larger and more forested of the two macaque enclosures, this one shared with anoa I believe.

@Lafone - a portion of the langur and Babirusa enclosure.

Rhinos of Nepal:
A series of paddocks and stables for Indian Rhinoceros, which have bred at the collection in recent years. Really well-done in my eyes, with the larger and grassier paddock being a particular triumph. I am also a fan of the indoor area with its deep pools and the foliage in the visitor area giving a more modern feel, the former actually filled using rainwater collected by the building's roof.

@MagpieGoose - the largest of the Indian Rhino enclosures. The combined area of the three outdoor paddocks is 1.3 hectares (3.2 acres).

Siberian Tigers:
To avoid repeating myself, I will just quote the description that I provided in the Berlin thread, where this enclosure was also relevant.

Siberian Tiger:

Credit: @twilighter - again shows roughly two thirds. The beautiful foliage and size of the enclosure is best appreciable here, but the small climbing apparatus has since been replaced with a far bigger one pictured below:

@Lafone - the pond appears drained here because it had just been expanded when the photo was taken, but it is filled on most days.

The tiger outdoor enclosure totals 3,600 sqm (0.9 acres).

Visayan Warty Pigs and Philippine Spotted Deer:

@MagpieGoose - by far the biggest enclosure that I have seen for warty pigs, with a great variety of substrates too. The main paddock measures 2,200 sqm (0.5 acres), but there is also a small separation paddock.

Indian Gaur:

@twilighter - while the future of this species at Whipsnade is uncertain, that doesn't take away from the ability to enjoy the very impressive cows in this huge, 8,600 sqm (2.1 acres) field.

Free-roamers:
Chinese Water Deer and Reeve's Muntjac are entitled to roam the entire 200 hectare zoo as they please!

Aquarium:

@MagpieGoose - moving away from large mammals, the Vietnamese Stream paludarium, the first seen upon entering the Aquarium, would count as well. There are Red-cheeked Goby and Spotted Hillstream Loach within the tank itself, while a pair of Chinese Crocodile Lizards roam the branches above for a very lively and enjoyable display.

Butterfly House:

@MagpieGoose - a small portion of one of the largest and liveliest such displays in Europe. Not sure how many (if any, but I am sure there are some) of the butterflies are Asian, but the free-ranging Crested Wood Partridges certainly are, and the Spiny Hill Turtles that inhabit an open-topped terrarium in the corner should be as well.

@Kalaw - very densely vegetated Spiny Hill Turtle enclosure.

Also, not entirely certain, but would the Wolverine, Northern Lynx and European Brown Bears count, as their range, I believe, extends east of the Ural Mountains and therefore into what is regarded as the 'Asian' half of Russia? If so, then all of these, especially the highly regarded bear enclosure with its immense historical significance, could prove quite influential in the tie, but I will wait to hear confirmation before providing any sort of information about them.

That aside, I have just about covered everything Whipsnade has to offer, with a few exceptions. There is quite a bit more of the extensive hoofstock selection, again in delightful paddocks, a few aviaries in Owl Wood, and unfortunately, a fair few wing-clipped birds in open-topped aviaries, although off the top of my head I believe the majority of these should not count for this category.

Will begin work on a similar such overview for London shortly. Looking forward to seeing if any Beauval voters can provide something similar as this has the potential to be a really exciting match.

 

[Kalaw]

And here is the London overview.

London:

Land of the Lions:
A very controversial exhibit for its theming. We have already gone into depth about this in the ZSL / Berlin thread, so for the time being I will only touch upon it briefly here, but I will say that I think the theming, while perhaps a little over-the-top and out-of-character for ZSL, serves its purpose; to represent an Indian village, thus dispelling any visitor beliefs that all lions are African, and also alluding to the in situ conservation projects that ZSL support in the Gir National Parks where Asiatic Lions naturally reside. The theming is also incorporated into the viewing areas quite nicely, such as the railway platform which is split in half and heated on the lions side to encourage that they sit there, right in front of you, with benches and such pedestrian amenities on the lion half adding to the illusion of sharing a single space. Overall, controversial though this may be, I like Land of the Lions' theming. And I think that from a lion perspective, its excellence is undeniable.

Again, quoting how I described it in the Berlin thread:

As briefly touched on in my last post, the main thing that makes this lion enclosure so good is how it manages to offer a myriad of different viewing angles, increasing the likelihood of good views of the lions, but never compromises the animals' privacy in doing so. There are two enclosures, with the larger of which, the moated enclosure, being of a roughly equal size to Berlin's at 1,200 sqm each (excluding the moat itself for both), while the smallest is just short of 900 sqm - the combined area of 2,100 sqm is probably the biggest that I have seen in an urban zoo. Both enclosures are very lushly planted, far more so than is usually the case for the species, with thick bushes and long grass that allow the animals plenty of retreats if need be - as do the multiple offshow indoor areas.

However, if the animals are active, then the number of viewing angles guarantees some good views. Some of the elevated resting platforms allow the lions to get eye-level with the boardwalk. Then there is the infamous 'train station,' which is designed to look like a train platform, split in two by glass, so that you feel as though you are on the same surface, sharing the same space, as the lions. If I remember correct, the lions' half of the platform is heated, and is thus one of their favourite spots of the enclosure, increasing your chance of memorable, up-close views; when they were newborn, it was the place where the cubs and their mother spent most of their time. There are also glass-fronted viewing areas of the moated enclosure, but not the moated side - again, the heated rocks and other areas of comfort for the lions are cleverly positioned right in front of the glass to increase the likelihood of up-close views. Quieter areas like behind the mongooses, or the little pathway beyond the outdoor areas of Blackburn Pavilion, can be good areas for visitors to get away from crowds and still get good views of the lions.

Another strength is that cross-viewing is prevented by the beautiful, mature oak trees that cover elevated windows when you are standing from the lower ones. Unfortunately, this, along with the rather long, winding shape of the moated enclosure, makes finding pictures that show the entire space impossible, so I've had to attach quite a few:

Credit: @Crowthorne - showing I would guess 1/2 of the moated enclosure.

Credit: @Crowthorne - again, I would say a little under half of the space is shown

Credit: @Crowthorne - the other half of the moated enclosure, but shortly after its construction. Needless to say, the whole thing is now covered in grass and all of those bushes are considerably larger.

Credit: @gulogulogulo - the controversial train station viewing described above.

Also within Land of the Lions is a delightful rarity, the only Small Indian Mongoose in Europe!

@Maguari - showing half the outdoor enclosure for the mongooses; very dense, reasonably spacious, with plenty on offer in terms of privacy.

@Swanson02 - elsewhere in the complex is a pair of really nicely done Hanuman Langur enclosures. Neither are huge, but together they offer a more than sufficient amount of space with plenty of climbing and vegetation. The theming is again a highly subjective affair.

@Crowthorne - the Ruppell's Griffon Vulture and Black Kite aviary, which I for one find to be very spacious and nicely done, offering the animals far more space for prolonged flight than is often the case in zoos.

@Swanson02 - the final enclosure in LotL is the Reeve's Muntjac enclosure, which is very well-done with plenty of privacy and a mature weeping willow dominating the sightline. They can be difficult to see as a result, but still a lovely display.

Tiger Territory:
Opening three years prior to LotL, there are similarities, but the theming here is far more subtle. Some excellent interactive educational displays, impressive tiger statues and quite a bit linking to in situ conservation projects, but overall the whole complex is far more subtle and thus arguably more appealing.

Again, quoting how I described the tiger enclosure itself in the Berlin thread to save repeating myself:

Sumatran Tiger:

Credit: @Swanson02 - the smaller (700 sqm) of the two enclosures, although still quite a bit bigger than Berlin's if I am not mistaken. A very attractive, lushly planted enclosure with a sizable pool. Here, there is also a heated area immediately in front of the glass visitor viewing, allowing for remarkable up-close views, but an equally favourable spot is the long heated rock ridge at the far end, obscured by the impressive tree, allowing for more privacy.

Credit: @MagpieGoose - the larger enclosure, at around 1,300 sqm. Again, its long and winding design makes photographing the whole thing difficult, but I think this image does well to demonstrate the dense foliage in the enclosure, the height of some of the climbing apparatus, and the elegance of the aviary-like netting that covers it all.

Yet again, I would say this is one of the best, if not the best, big cat enclosures that I have seen in a zoo of London's size; a really impressive achievement in my opinion.

But there are more than just tigers here. The Northern White-cheeked Gibbon cage is really good, striking a balance between functional cages (with mesh on all sizes for increased elevation and conspicuous platforms and ropes) and more aesthetic ones with the vegetation within exceeding what is typical from such cages. Plenty of space and climbing, but also memorable visitor views, is therefore on offer.

@MagpieGoose - a newer photo showing the foliage.

@gulogulogulo - there is also a Babirusa enclosure in the former elephant paddock, backdropped by the very brutalist Casson Elephant and Rhino Pavilion.

Blackburn Pavilion:
Now onto what is without a doubt (for me at least) ZSL's best offering in this category, and my personal all-time favourite zoo exhibit.

Blackburn is a Victorian reptile house now serving as a bird house. The central walkthrough is excellent with plenty of flight space for the large flocks of laughingthrushes and doves to name just a few, but what makes the Pavilion such a charming display is the fact that this walkthrough, and all the smaller aviaries in the entrance lobby, are almost entirely wire-enclosed, therefore allowing for the calls and wingbeats of the birds to echo freely throughout the building, which is one of the quieter corners of a very busy zoo. There are some massive and very densely planted outdoor aviaries too, and a smaller walkthrough. The building is not geographically arranged (its only real weakness), but there are several Asian species, probably more than from any other continent. In terms of activity, the highlights are the many laughingthrushes in large numbers performing laps of the hall, but in terms of rarity, the Javan Green Magpies in the outdoor aviaries are most notable, although the likes of Grosbeak Starling are also very nice.

@amur leopard - entrance.

@Dr. Loxodonta - entrance hall / lobby.

@Crowthorne - main walkthrough.

@gulogulogulo - part of the smaller walkthrough.

@gulogulogulo - Javan Green Magpie aviary.

Tiny Giants:
The zoo's invertebrate house, amongst the largest and most engaging in Europe, houses a fair few Asian taxa. Even as someone with little to no interest in invertebrates, I have always loved this exhibit,with interactive and innovative displays that always find ways to grab my attention. I am not sure how many Asian species are currently kept, but I have fond memories in recent years of Giant Dead Leaf Mantis and Giant Asian Praying Mantis among some other bizarre invertebrates.

@Maguari - entrance.

@twilighter - initial view.

Due to the 20 photo per post limit, I will have to resume where I left off later, covering SLoRA and a few other Asian areas of the zoo, should nobody else beat me to it.

In the time being, I would still love to hear some arguments in Beauval's favour as I think this thread has real potential to generate discussion. In particular, I would be interested to hear why @Haasje believes Beauval is worthy of a 4-1 victory.

 

[Kalaw]

As promised, here is the remainder of the London overview, along with some brief descirptions of Beauval and summarising thoughts on why I think ZSL deserve the victory here.

The Secret Life of Reptiles and Amphibians:
Childish name aside, London Zoo's new (March 2024) reptile house, which I will henceforth be abbrieviating to SLoRA, is excellent. It isn't massive, but I am yet to see any reptile display in person that can exceed its quality, and unless something in the Equatorial Dome disproves this (which opened after my visit) it is far better than anything that Beauval has for its reptiles.

@Maguari - very large terrarium for two Mangshan Pitvipers on the left.

@Dr. Loxodonta - very large Philippine Crocodile pool (far deeper than the underwater viewing would suggest, allowing for full submersion and prolonged swimming); there is also an offshow pool.

@Maguari - showing the two very large and very deep Chinese Giant Salamander pools, with a network of rocky caves for privacy at the back.

@amur leopard - what may be the biggest and best terrarium I have seen for any venomous snake, holding King Cobra.

These three are the enclosures I was most impressed by, but note that all four of them also hold rather choice taxa. Other nice Asian species in the building include Laos Warty Newt (who have already bred within just a year of the house being open), Blue Tree Monitor, Chinese Crocodile Lizard, Big-headed Turtle (who have bred repeatedly at the zoo over the years), Annam Leaf Turtle, Roti Island Snake-necked Turtle, Chapa Mossy Frog (although not pictured, their enclosure is another favourite of mine, with an extensive mossy rock face that offers great joy searching for the inhabitants, with several small waterfalls) and Kaiser's Spotted Newt.

Attenborough Komodo Dragon House:

@MagpieGoose - showing a small portion of the large and well-structured Komodo enclosure.

Although sadly not pictured in the gallery, the Mindanao Water Monitor, surely one of the most attractive varanid taxa, have a sizable new terrarium at one end of the house.

Western Aviary:

@gulogulogulo - large and attractive aviary for Asian Woollyneck Storks.

Night Life:

@MagpieGoose - one of a network of similar enclosures for Pygmy Slow Loris.

There are no pictures of their rather new enclosure, but Belanger's Treeshrew also have a large enclosure in this nocturnal house.

Otters and Mongooses:

@gulogulogulo - a portion of the very large and densely vegetated Asiatic Short-clawed Otter enclosure.

@Dr. Loxodonta - a fairly nondescriept Dwarf Mongoose enclosure.

And that just about covers everything of significance that the two ZSL collections have to offer.

Here are a few links to relevant conservation projects. Sadly, numbers showing how much is donated are not publicly available, but all the same the links make for good reading. And while exactly how much goes to what projects, it is worth noting that ZSL contributes more to in situ conservation than any other zoo in Europe! Between May 2023 and May 2024, £12,154,000 (€14,658,000) was donated to in situ alone, and that isn't even considering the many millions more that went to research projects.

Sumatran Tiger conservation
Wild Bactrian Camel conservation
Thailand conservation (elephants, tigers and pangolins are target species)
Preventing illegal trade of pangolins in China
Other miscellaneous pangolin conservation projects (most, but not all, in Asia)
Restoring mangrove habitats in the Philippines
Research and preservation of Indian Ocean habitats
Preventing illegal wildlife trade in Mongolia

And these are just the ones that are publicly advertised on the zoo's website, which hardly scratch the surface of the full extent.

Overall, ZSL has several world-class exhibits for Asian species at both zoos, and a vast array of endangered and scarcely kept taxa breed regularly. With SLoRA and Monkey Forest being partially and fully Asian respectively, a lot of investment in recent years has gone into this particular category. I loved quite a few of Beauval's Asian offerings, and in particular will never forget my first panda, but nothing compares to the main walkthrough of Blackburn Pavilion, or the awe of watching the deer herds graze or wade in the lakes on a hot summer's day, or searching Whipsnade's seemingly endless grounds for the free-rangers. And ZSL has nothing as bad as Beauval's tiger enclosures (not sure if the leopard enclosure is still as awful as it was on my visit a few years ago), barring maybe the flight-restricted birds - but then again Beauval has several of those of its own. Then one takes into account the extensive in situ conservation work and the engaging educational displays through which ZSL aims to raise awareness of this, and I feel as though ZSL is simply a far better collection for Asian taxa than Beauval.

I know that one may look at my location and assume bias, but let it be known that Beauval is also a collection of immense sentimental significance to myself, being the first 'world-class' zoo that I visited and almost singlehandedly responsible for reviving my zoo enthusiasm and taking it to the level it is at today. I love both zoos, and at both Asian taxa are some of the highlights, but I think ZSL is ahead.

Will this be enough for ZSL to qualify? I highly doubt it, but that depends on other zoo's results. It could come down to very fine margins indeed.

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

I think the collection of Asian animals may well be one of Whipsnade's strongest suites in this competition, especially with the relatively new monkey enclosures opening up. The Asian section is inevitably the last one I visit, but it always feels like it's the one I spend the most time looking around, not counting when I'm trying to spot the wolverines in the European section. Speaking of, considering the fact that all the animals in the European section are technically Asian too, then well over half (2/3rds, perhaps?) of Whipsnade's grounds is for Asian animals.

 

[Lafone]

I've appreciated all the detail offered about Beauval in previous matches and the galleries full of images (it's during these Cups that I am particularly grateful for all the shots everyone takes of enclosures - it makes it worth standing in the rain waiting for people to move!) and although I think it is impressive and therefore hard to vote 4:1 I am currently voting ZSL 3:2 in this category.

The expansive facilities for 'Asia' continue to grow and develop at ZSL with Monkey Forest, Philipine Spotted deer and Banteng all recent additions to the collection at Whipsnade. The Langurs and Macaques have established a healthy breeding population and both can be found outside and on their frames and trees, even in winter, countering the early experience / fear of 'big deserted spaces'. In summer they will be a real treat and the paddocks are still active due to the mix with Anoa and Babirusa - there's always something to enjoy in this massive new facility (and a foot based view of the excellent Passage through Asia to boot). Add to that one of the UK's best centres for Asian elephants with an excellent husbandry and breeding record and a host of other exhibits at both sites which emphasise quality and have successful breeding records (from domestic Yak and Bactrians, to Sumatran tigers and Przewalski's horses and back again) and the cards do stack for me. London also has the new Reptile space with it's great new exhibits.

Feature animal wise for Beauval, I am not persuaded by Giant Pandas, indeed I dislike the financial arrangements zoos make to have them. I doubt that's a common view here, but it's how I feel about the commercialisation of endangered species - more could be done for more species instead without getting into bed with China in my view. This isn't to say I don't love seeing Pandas, I do, I think the price is too high to do so in all ways. The other Asia areas of Beauval are however undoubtedly strong, even without Pandas and I'd certainly like to see it as a zoo.

@Kalaw 's excellent summaries are comprehensive and make a great case and I am happy I am not just voting for ZSL as it is my 'home' zoo but because this is a particularly strong category for the two zoos vs the one.

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

Feature animal wise for Beauval, I am not persuaded by Giant Pandas, indeed I dislike the financial arrangements zoos make to have them. I doubt that's a common view here, but it's how I feel about the commercialisation of endangered species - more could be done for more species instead without getting into bed with China in my view. This isn't to say I don't love seeing Pandas, I do, I think the price is too high to do so in all ways. The other Asia areas of Beauval are however undoubtedly strong, even without Pandas and I'd certainly like to see it as a zoo.

To be fair, when voting for Zoo Berlin in its first match in the "Carnivore" section, I decided to disclude the Giant Pandas from my initial assessment. Yes, they are a major cap for Berlin and it being one of the best panda enclosures in Europe (plus some personal bias as those were my first pandas), but it felt too easy to give Berlin the win if I included them. Luckily, I felt Berlin did well regardless.

 

[cornu aspersum]

@Dr. Loxodonta - a fairly nondescriept Dwarf Mongoose enclosure

Really great post, but this species doesn't count for this category.

@MagpieGoose - one of a network of similar enclosures for Pygmy Slow Loris

With grey slender loris also having similar multiple enclosures.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Posts from the two outlier votes in either direction - @Haasje and @Skukuza - would be illuminating at this point I feel, especially the former of these given the fact that (if their vote is based on something that others have overlooked, and not merely "Beauval is Beauval") they potentially could turn the tide of the match around with their insights!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Being as neither of the extreme outliers seem willing or able to post their thoughts at present - although hopefully this will change before the end of the match - I think it would be interesting to hear from @pipaluk for his opinions on the matter and why he has gone for a Beauval-centric vote perhaps he can swing things towards the French collection?

 

[pipaluk]

Being as neither of the extreme outliers seem willing or able to post their thoughts at present - although hopefully this will change before the end of the match - I think it would be interesting to hear from @pipaluk for his opinions on the matter and why he has gone for a Beauval-centric vote perhaps he can swing things towards the French collection?

I will try and post my reasoning for Beauval later, but I'm afraid I don't have the technical ability, time or energy to post as detailed a post as those for ZSL already.
Basically to start with I think as in other contests for ZSL , this comes down to what Whipsnade has to save them from a hammering.
If this was Beauval v London it would be comfortably 4-1 Beauval possibly 5-0. London's tiger exhibit is probably a bit better than Beauval's.
London has the 2 loris species in the nocturnal area but nothing else.
I think trying to claim the main walkthrough of the Blackburn pavillion as Asia is pushing it as at most 50% of species are Asian and Beauval has a bigger and in my opinion better bird house (perhaps not as historically significant) with free roaming chevrotain.
The invertebrate house and new reptile house cannot be claimed as a whole as Asian and all the exhibits for those species are at least as good at Beauval or better. By this count does the whole tropical dome count as Asia because some species are?
Land of the Lions - theming alone(hated by many including @TeaLovingDave )worth minus one point meaning London alone scores nil!
Small Indian mongoose - this is a bit of a bonus for London but again theming make the exhibit awful.
Ruppells griffon vulture aren't Asian but in an Indian themed area -another black mark.

I will post my thoughts on Whipsnade v Beauval later but I really believe this is closer 4-1 Beauval than 3-2 ZSL!

 

[pipaluk]

Let's start with the negatives for Whipsnade

Passage through Asia

Held up as a great drive through exhibit - it's not bad, you can see herds of sika , fallow and barasingha deer plus 2 female blackbuck and a few hog deer and Chinese water deer(which are free roaming all over the zoo anyway).Less species' than held previously.
My criticism is that to see these species you have to spend either £30 to take your car into the zoo( or spend something equivalent for a family of 4 on the train ) to even see it - I wouldn't bother if I didn't get my car in for free as a ZSL FELLOW!
This area is a shadow of its former self, no way does it justify the extra cost

 

[Kalaw]

Really great post, but this species doesn't count for this category.

Seeing them in Land of the Lions over the past few years had me convinced they were Indian! Another plus of the Small Indians taking their place - improving the exhibit's geographical accuracy.

ILondon's tiger exhibit is probably a bit better than Beauval's.

Unfortunately, there are no photos from Beauval in the gallery that really demonstrate my point, or confirm that I am not misremembering, but I think that 'probably a bit better' is hugely understating things. Either of the two interconnected Sumatran enclosures at London are probably double the size of the Beauval enclosures (with the leucistic and Sumatran spaces not interconnecting, hence why I view them as separate entities but the London two as just one), with considerably more climbing, privacy and separation options.

This photo comes closest to providing an overview of Beauval's white tiger enclosure. I believe the one for Sumatrans is a roughly equal size.

@Maguari

Compared to this at London:

@Swanson02

@gulogulogulo

London has the 2 loris species in the nocturnal area but nothing else.

The new treeshrews. But yes, you are correct that very little of 'Night Life' is Asian.

I think trying to claim the main walkthrough of the Blackburn pavillion as Asia is pushing it as at most 50% of species are Asian

10/22 species in the main walkthrough are Asian (that number rises to 12 if we count New Guinea for this category, but I am guessing we don't?). If you believe those 12 non-Asian species negate the impact of the 10, then that is your choice, but personally I don't see how it is fair. The presence of Central American and African species doesn't detract from the excellence of the enclosure for the partridges, doves and laughingthrushes who are entitled to full flight of a very spacious enclosure. Nor does it prevent visitors from standing in awe as laughingthrushes encircle their heads. The enclosure isn't aiming for geographical accuracy, so I don't believe it matters that there is none. Your complaints about the Griffon Vultures in LotL have much more merit, I will admit, as that enclosure is Indian-themed; and I also cannot dispute that the Birds Greenhouse at Beauval is excellent, although I don't believe it is superior to Blackburn in any way.

The invertebrate house and new reptile house cannot be claimed as a whole as Asian and all the exhibits for those species are at least as good at Beauval or better. By this count does the whole tropical dome count as Asia because some species are?

Of course the invertebrate and reptile house do not count as Asian, and nobody ever suggested anything to the contrary. But what I would argue to be the three best exhibits in SLoRA (crocodiles, giant salamanders and cobras) *are* all viable, as are several of the most noteworthy rarities (giant salamanders, pitvipers, warty newts etc.). I don't recall any terraria at Beauval which come close to this level, but as your visit is more recent than mine I would be happy to be proven wrong here. Maybe something in the Dome which I never saw in person is, but I thought most of the terraria there were South American?

If there are Asian free-roamers in the Dome, then they should certainly be factored in (in my opinion), and Beauval should receive praise for providing the species with such tremendous flight space. But you obviously cannot count the manatees or otters just because of the doucs; not sure what you were referring to when you say 'by this count,' as nobody is suggesting anything similar for London.

Let's start with the negatives for Whipsnade

Passage through Asia

Held up as a great drive through exhibit - it's not bad, you can see herds of sika , fallow and barasingha deer plus 2 female blackbuck and a few hog deer and Chinese water deer(which are free roaming all over the zoo anyway).Less species' than held previously.
My criticism is that to see these species you have to spend either £30 to take your car into the zoo( or spend something equivalent for a family of 4 on the train ) to even see it - I wouldn't bother if I didn't get my car in for free as a ZSL FELLOW!
This area is a shadow of its former self, no way does it justify the extra cost

A very good point about the absurd additional cost, I can't argue with that one!

I would add that the new pathway in Monkey Forest has done wonders to improve pedestrian viewing of the deer, but yes, it is still difficult to appreciate Passage through Asia without a car, and in and of itself it is not worth £30.

And the train price is not equivalent. Can't remember the exact prices, but I believe it is something like £4 for an adult and £2 for a child, so about £12 for the average family of four. Still not a great price though, and Whipsnade regulars may be able to correct me if I am rounding down.

 

[pipaluk]

Seeing them in Land of the Lions over the past few years had me convinced they were Indian! Another plus of the Small Indians taking their place - improving the exhibit's geographical accuracy.
Unfortunately, there are no photos from Beauval in the gallery that really demonstrate my point, or confirm that I am not misremembering, but I think that 'probably a bit better' is hugely understating things. Either of the two interconnected Sumatran enclosures at London are probably double the size of the Beauval enclosures (with the leucistic and Sumatran spaces not interconnecting, hence why I view them as separate entities but the London two as just one), with considerably more climbing, privacy and separation options.

This photo comes closest to providing an overview of Beauval's white tiger enclosure. I believe the one for Sumatrans is a roughly equal size.

@Maguari

Compared to this at London:

@Swanson02

@gulogulogulo
The new treeshrews. But yes, you are correct that very little of 'Night Life' is Asian.
10/22 species in the main walkthrough are Asian (that number rises to 12 if we count New Guinea for this category, but I am guessing we don't?). If you believe those 12 non-Asian species negate the impact of the 10, then that is your choice, but personally I don't see how it is fair. The presence of Central American and African species doesn't detract from the excellence of the enclosure for the partridges, doves and laughingthrushes who are entitled to full flight of a very spacious enclosure. Nor does it prevent visitors from standing in awe as laughingthrushes encircle their heads. The enclosure isn't aiming for geographical accuracy, so I don't believe it matters that there is none. Your complaints about the Griffon Vultures in LotL have much more merit, I will admit, as that enclosure is Indian-themed; and I also cannot dispute that the Birds Greenhouse at Beauval is excellent, although I don't believe it is superior to Blackburn in any way.
Of course the invertebrate and reptile house do not count as Asian, and nobody ever suggested anything to the contrary. But what I would argue to be the three best exhibits in SLoRA (crocodiles, giant salamanders and cobras) *are* all viable, as are several of the most noteworthy rarities (giant salamanders, pitvipers, warty newts etc.). I don't recall any terraria at Beauval which come close to this level, but as your visit is more recent than mine I would be happy to be proven wrong here. Maybe something in the Dome which I never saw in person is, but I thought most of the terraria there were South American?

If there are Asian free-roamers in the Dome, then they should certainly be factored in (in my opinion), and Beauval should receive praise for providing the species with such tremendous flight space. But you obviously cannot count the manatees or otters just because of the doucs; not sure what you were referring to when you say 'by this count,' as nobody is suggesting anything similar for London.
A very good point about the absurd additional cost, I can't argue with that one!

I would add that the new pathway in Monkey Forest has done wonders to improve pedestrian viewing of the deer, but yes, it is still difficult to appreciate Passage through Asia without a car, and in and of itself it is not worth £30.

And the train price is not equivalent. Can't remember the exact prices, but I believe it is something like £4 for an adult and £2 for a child, so about £12 for the average family of four. Still not a great price though, and Whipsnade regulars may be able to correct me if I am rounding down.

In winter it is currently £5 adults £2.50 children under 16 but suspect it is higher in summer

 

[pipaluk]

Every exhibit for reptiles, amphibians or fish in the dome or elsewhere at Beauval are at least the equivalent of ZSL

 

[Lafone]

Let's start with the negatives for Whipsnade

Passage through Asia

Held up as a great drive through exhibit - it's not bad, you can see herds of sika , fallow and barasingha deer plus 2 female blackbuck and a few hog deer and Chinese water deer(which are free roaming all over the zoo anyway).Less species' than held previously.
My criticism is that to see these species you have to spend either £30 to take your car into the zoo( or spend something equivalent for a family of 4 on the train ) to even see it - I wouldn't bother if I didn't get my car in for free as a ZSL FELLOW!
This area is a shadow of its former self, no way does it justify the extra cost

I'd make a few notes to suggest A Passahe through Asia is above 'not bad' in terms of exhibitry, access and content. You can now see a good amount of the enclosure from the new Monkey Forest exhibit on foot and admire the deer without paying any more (and encouraged to by the new signage about the deer in the footpath area). The other species in the area are the Pere David's Deer, a substantial herd with a sound breeding record and a key part of the Edge conservation initiative. The good sized herd of actively breeding Hog deer can also be seen on foot outside the car area as they occupy the enclosure next to the Cheetahs along with the Barisingha (also active breeders) so don't have an additional cost to view.

I don't argue the car cost is high but there are other ways to see it.

I think too that if arguing the prices for a family of four on the train it's hard to sustain an argument about it having less than it used to so not being worth it...lots of infrequent visitors won't know or indeed mind (though us regulars would!).

At the other end of A Passage through Asia are the Domestic Bactrians and Przewalkski's horses, both of which can also be seen on foot now from the other side of the Monkey Forest, from the fence line between the Monkey Forest and the rhinos opposite the yaks as well as in the car.

Even if not taking the car in I think I'd argue a positive for the train in this regard as it also includes the other views of the Asian elephants and Indian rhinos, counting well towards an upside for the Asia category. And judging from the conversations near the station people ride it for 'train' anyway.

Train costs this year from Feb 2025

Adult (Inc. Seniors.)£5.00
Essential CarerFREE
Child (Under 3)FREE
Child (Aged 3-15) £2.50
Child School Group £1.00
Adult School Group £5.00
Teacher (when accompanying a school group)FREE
Adult (Inc. Seniors) Gold Member / Fellow £4.50
Child Gold Member £2.00