European wolves in the UK

Yes I'd be interested to see any anecdotal evidence of male elephants being culled at birth, I really don't believe any institution would risk the publicity. There are parks in Europe holding specifically bachelor groups, two chester-born bulls went to belgium, and two Rotterdam-born bulls that arrived as calves at Port Lympne went to a safari park in Spain.

I think the humane issue you were disagreeing with is down to how an animal is euthanased. It's not a case of a wasted carcass when animals are euthanased by injection.....they are contaminated with the medicine used to put them to sleep and cannot be fed to carnivores. That's where the ethical question comes up. Furthermore, there is a qualitative difference in taking a tractable, domestic animal to slaughter and doing the same to a kudu or deer. It's one thing for a deer farm in New Zealand or antelope ranch in South Africa to make that choice, but for a British zoological collection reliant to a large extent on gate revenue, I think it would be a difficult decision to justify. Th
 
I doubt any zoo would euthanise a species such as an elephant just because it was a surplus male. An antelope could go un-noticed and not bother the public too much, but an elephant wouldn't and the zoo would be boycotted by everyone. And when I visited Dartmoor they did whole carcass feeding for the wolves. The number of people complaining about it was really shocking!
BTW, not vegan Jonhstoni (I think it would kill me, I'm too skinny already lol) but I am a veggie and I see what you're on about, example: You're in a restaurant and someone says "Kangaroo meat?! You can't serve that, it's cruel! Quarterpounder please":rolleyes:
Sorry to side track and that :p
 
johnstoni said:
Yes I'd be interested to see any anecdotal evidence of male elephants being culled at birth, I really don't believe any institution would risk the publicity. There are parks in Europe holding specifically bachelor groups, two chester-born bulls went to belgium, and two Rotterdam-born bulls that arrived as calves at Port Lympne went to a safari park in Spain.

I think the humane issue you were disagreeing with is down to how an animal is euthanased. It's not a case of a wasted carcass when animals are euthanased by injection.....they are contaminated with the medicine used to put them to sleep and cannot be fed to carnivores. That's where the ethical question comes up. Furthermore, there is a qualitative difference in taking a tractable, domestic animal to slaughter and doing the same to a kudu or deer. It's one thing for a deer farm in New Zealand or antelope ranch in South Africa to make that choice, but for a British zoological collection reliant to a large extent on gate revenue, I think it would be a difficult decision to justify. Th
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Sorry for the confusion, my ethical issue is why should a kudu get to be humanely euthanised so it cannot be used in the food chain, when it could be humanely slaughtered and prevent the death of a domestic species killed to feed the same carnivore. Is the life of a kudu any different of that of a sheep/cow/pig? Why have two deaths (one euthanised, one slaughter) when the animal being euthanised could have been used instead. I know animals cannot be used for food when they are euthanised on medical grounds, I am only on about healthy but excess stock.

I was relatively unaware how widespread feeding excess livestock was until the BSE outbreak. Herds of deer and antelope in british zoological collections were affected and this caused concern about the effect on carnivores and if any of these animals will get the disease from eating infected meat (especially as they are often fed the brain too) much like soem humans have been affected. I think that there are many such decisions taken that would not get public support but they are kept very quiet and it only becomes public when there is an accident or issue.
 
Hi all,

Here's some info regarding the Euros at the UKWCT and at Wildwood.

It all started in 1998 when Roger Palmer of the UKWCT used his contacts abroad to obtain three yearling wolves from Germany and Romania. The wolves were Luna and Athena (females) and Apollo (male). They were quarantined and the vet said that they were too young to breed, so no worries about keeping them in a single enclosure.

So much for that - Apollo and Luna bred in 1999 and there were six pups as a result. Two were stillborn, one was sent to the Paradise Wildlife Park (Luana) and the remaining three were kept by the UKWCT (Alba, Lunca and Letea - named after Romanian towns. Letea was called Latea by most, mistakenly, and the name stuck.)

The parents weren't fully socialised and they were transferred to Wildwood in Kent soon afterwards.

Wildwood was just starting back then and the wolves were a massive hit - so much so that Luna served as a mascot for the wildlife park and to this day she appears on their mailshots, site maps etc.

Luna died due to wounds sustained in pack dominance and Athena (always the underdog) was transferred to the Norfolk wildlife park. Apollo was neutered and is still to be found at Wildwood.

The UKWCT, meanwhile, used the Euros extensively for their activities - taking them to shows and the like. However, four years ago Alba, the male, broke his neck one evening by running into a tree (it's thought he was looking over his shoulder at his sisters at the time). He's made a good recovery but is still a bit wobbly. Lunca and Latea swapped positions three years ago and as of now Latea is the alpha female. She's also very friendly towards people.

Wildwood on the other hand bred their wolves. They had several litters and unfortunately some inbreeding went on - the family tree looks pretty chaotic! They've gone from having 16 wolves or so in a 1 acre enclosure down to 4 or 5 today, which is much more suitable. The majority of the excess Euros went to Wolf Watch in Shropshire (although they don't appear on their site for some reason) and some went with Athena to the Norfolk wildlife centre. Wildwood don't plan to breed their wolves any more - I'm not sure whether they'll replace them in years to come.

A side-effect of Wildwood's population boom was that two wolves, Nadja and Mischka, had to be rescued from a flooded den. They were hand-reared and are kept in a seperate (smaller) enclosure, albeit right next to the main enclosure. They're both very friendly towards visitors.

It's recently become "trendy" in UK zoos to go for European wolves over the (mixed ancestry) North Americans. There are two seperate strains of the latter in the UK, those used by Longleat, Howletts, Port Lympne, West Mids Safari Park and Woburn and those at Dartmoor. They're all classed as canis lupus occidentalis, the MacKenzie wolf not having existed since the 1992 North American Wolf Symposium declared it to be the same species as c. l. occidentalis. Interestingly all the North Americans I've seen in the UK have been on the small side for their species, much smaller than those on display in Seattle, Ely (Minnesota), Vancouver etc.

There are three North American / European hybrids in the UK, as far as I'm aware. The Anglian Wolf Society bred Sefka (NA) with either Cheyza / Peyto (never confirmed which, both Euros) and there were three pups as a result. They kept the two females and the male, Torak, was sent to the UKWCT. He's an oddity, with the colour of a European but the leggy stature of a North American. He's also shy, by far the most shy of the UKWCT's wolves.
 
Retron said:
Here's some info regarding the Euros at the UKWCT and at Wildwood.

It all started in 1998 when Roger Palmer of the UKWCT used his contacts abroad to obtain three yearling wolves from Germany and Romania. The wolves were Luna and Athena (females) and Apollo (male). They were quarantined and the vet said that they were too young to breed, so no worries about keeping them in a single enclosure.
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Actually all three probably came from the same source in Romania. I have heard theories from many people who could tell 'regional' differences between Carpathian wolves and other Eastern European wolves. There is no evidence to support this, and unfortunately Palmer cannot be asked as he is now dead. There is little documented evidence from the import.

Retron said:
So much for that - Apollo and Luna bred in 1999 and there were six pups as a result. Two were stillborn, one was sent to the Paradise Wildlife Park (Luana) and the remaining three were kept by the UKWCT (Alba, Lunca and Letea - named after Romanian towns. Letea was called Latea by most, mistakenly, and the name stuck.)

The parents weren't fully socialised and they were transferred to Wildwood in Kent soon afterwards.

Wildwood was just starting back then and the wolves were a massive hit - so much so that Luna served as a mascot for the wildlife park and to this day she appears on their mailshots, site maps etc.

Luna died due to wounds sustained in pack dominance and Athena (always the underdog) was transferred to the Norfolk wildlife park. Apollo was neutered and is still to be found at Wildwood.
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Luna did die as a result of wounds sustained in a changing of the guard. At this point of time the pack numbered nearly a dozen animals (only about four were young pups). If anybody has seen the exhibit you will quickly notice the space would have difficulty sustaining that many animals.

Retron said:
The UKWCT, meanwhile, used the Euros extensively for their activities - taking them to shows and the like. However, four years ago Alba, the male, broke his neck one evening by running into a tree (it's thought he was looking over his shoulder at his sisters at the time). He's made a good recovery but is still a bit wobbly. Lunca and Latea swapped positions three years ago and as of now Latea is the alpha female. She's also very friendly towards people.

Wildwood on the other hand bred their wolves. They had several litters and unfortunately some inbreeding went on - the family tree looks pretty chaotic! They've gone from having 16 wolves or so in a 1 acre enclosure down to 4 or 5 today, which is much more suitable. The majority of the excess Euros went to Wolf Watch in Shropshire (although they don't appear on their site for some reason) and some went with Athena to the Norfolk wildlife centre. Wildwood don't plan to breed their wolves any more - I'm not sure whether they'll replace them in years to come.
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The only inbreeding occured during the last lot of breeding circa 2005, when there more than just the original three adults involved, so actually parentage can be tricky to ascertain. It is common that the dominant bitch will care for all pups (assuming she doesn't kill other litters) with help from others.

Athena and a young male and female were sent to the original Norfolk Wildlife Park. I understand they have moved to a third private party since the changes to the park.

The story about the excess animals moving to Wolf Watch in Shropshire is not a happy one. Essentially the animals freaked out after being moved and within two days all had been shot through fear of escape over fences or because of injuries sustained via attempting to gain dominance. Unfortunately a right royal cock-up that lead to the needless deaths of too many animals.

Retron said:
A side-effect of Wildwood's population boom was that two wolves, Nadja and Mischka, had to be rescued from a flooded den. They were hand-reared and are kept in a seperate (smaller) enclosure, albeit right next to the main enclosure. They're both very friendly towards visitors.

It's recently become "trendy" in UK zoos to go for European wolves over the (mixed ancestry) North Americans. There are two seperate strains of the latter in the UK, those used by Longleat, Howletts, Port Lympne, West Mids Safari Park and Woburn and those at Dartmoor. They're all classed as canis lupus occidentalis, the MacKenzie wolf not having existed since the 1992 North American Wolf Symposium declared it to be the same species as c. l. occidentalis. Interestingly all the North Americans I've seen in the UK have been on the small side for their species, much smaller than those on display in Seattle, Ely (Minnesota), Vancouver etc.

There are three North American / European hybrids in the UK, as far as I'm aware. The Anglian Wolf Society bred Sefka (NA) with either Cheyza / Peyto (never confirmed which, both Euros) and there were three pups as a result. They kept the two females and the male, Torak, was sent to the UKWCT. He's an oddity, with the colour of a European but the leggy stature of a North American. He's also shy, by far the most shy of the UKWCT's wolves.
Click to expand...

The Euro wolves at Anglian WS are also Wildwood wolves (so pure) as are some at Coombe Martin Zoo.
 
tetrapod said:
Actually all three probably came from the same source in Romania. I have heard theories from many people who could tell 'regional' differences between Carpathian wolves and other Eastern European wolves. There is no evidence to support this, and unfortunately Palmer cannot be asked as he is now dead. There is little documented evidence from the import.
Click to expand...
From the mid-1998 newsletter from the UKWCT:

"Meanwhile our European wolves are continuing to settle in well. The 2 females are from Romania and the male was bred in East Germany. Originally they were all moved to Erik Zimen's park in Merzig in East Germany, where they were hand reared. As we briefly describe in our Wolf Print magazine, we collected them on Monday, February 9th from Theo von Hilst's wolf sanctuary in northern Holland. The cost of the modification to our little wolf trailer had already been covered by a rental to a third party. However, the cubs themselves were very expensive, at £750 each."

Now, the only person left at the Trust who was there when they were imported (via the ferry the Pride of Burgandy, as a useless aside) can't remember all the details. The only records left are those from the old newsletters.

As an aside, that's dreadful news about the wolves that went to Wolf Watch. No wonder there's no mention of them on their website! At least the UKWCT still has a mention on their site of their two pups from Wildwood - unfortunately they were put down due to calcium deficiency.
 
Retron said:
From the mid-1998 newsletter from the UKWCT:

"Meanwhile our European wolves are continuing to settle in well. The 2 females are from Romania and the male was bred in East Germany. Originally they were all moved to Erik Zimen's park in Merzig in East Germany, where they were hand reared. As we briefly describe in our Wolf Print magazine, we collected them on Monday, February 9th from Theo von Hilst's wolf sanctuary in northern Holland. The cost of the modification to our little wolf trailer had already been covered by a rental to a third party. However, the cubs themselves were very expensive, at £750 each."

Now, the only person left at the Trust who was there when they were imported (via the ferry the Pride of Burgandy, as a useless aside) can't remember all the details. The only records left are those from the old newsletters.

As an aside, that's dreadful news about the wolves that went to Wolf Watch. No wonder there's no mention of them on their website! At least the UKWCT still has a mention on their site of their two pups from Wildwood - unfortunately they were put down due to calcium deficiency.
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Very interesting. I have talked to people at UKWCT and never received anywhere near that level of info.

Yes it was very dreadful what happened with the wolf move to Wolf Watch. The owner was devastated with having to shoot the animals (never happened previously) and was upset with Wildwood management over a number of issues. I guess the no-show on the website is an attempt to forget the whole sorry debacle... Incidently there have been other litters of wolves at Wildood, which are no longer with us too.
 
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