Exotic reptiles seized in yet another drug bust

Thanks folks. I thought Gavin was one of those persons randomly named in a rambling post, like the way your grandmother would mention Frank's family tree when simply trying to say the postman popped by. Oh wait, now I am rambling. :D

Anyway, after reading Hix's post, I did some reading about the guy. Great stuff, BUT, I do wonder if there is any conservation value in capturing specimens for sale. Indeed, he says on his website (re: oenpelli pythons), and I quote:

"I want anyone who has an interest in this animal to own one, or even better a pair. Having said that the only way I can afford to do this project and bring them into captivity is if interested people get behind me and be a part of Australian Herpetological History by pre-purchasing a pair of hatchling Oenpelli Pythons. I will secure them in captivity first then with any luck and all the skill I possess will breed them within the next few years. Offspring will then be distributed to the people who have pre-purchased them in the order in which they have paid for them."

That does not sound like conservation to me. I am unsure what the difference is between him and the poorer guy who likes snakes and can only afford $50 for a captive bred boa. I am guessing that it would probably be that one was captive bred and the other was an extremely rare specimen and was taken from the wild. What am I missing here, because it sounds like you guys have no problem with what Gavin is trying to do.
 
crocodile_dan said:
Sorry Childonias what I meant is QLD permits people to legally keep the international localities of Green Tree Python, Sorong, Biak and Aru are GTP localities in Papua New Guinea and Indonesia. Other states don't make the distinction between native and international GTP localities, so they are simply a green tree python. QLD have the same international permit for Eclectus Parrots but I'm not to good on my bird knowledge. Apart from GTP's there are no other exotic species permitted, so no iguanas or boas legally.
Click to expand...
thanks, I understand that much more clearly now.
 
Nanoboy sorry about my rambling posts, here is another :)

as far as the Oenpelli Python and Conservation goes I completely agree, there is NO conservation value, at the very most it will prevent people taking these guys from the wild but Oenpellis are probably one of the hardest reptiles to find in the wild so that risk was low anyway. I have met Gavin Bedford at the Scales & Tails Reptile Expos and heard him give presentations as one of the guest speakers, he rambles on about conservation and this and that but he seems to just say the keywords and what he's saying can quickly be sifted through by anyone with a basic background in conservation biology, but to the general public it sounds as though he is about to save the Northern Territory! In my honest opinion that was the only way he was going to get the permits, make it about conservation and I reckon he worked that out a long time ago. To me this is a personally motivated program guided by arrogance, his talks are very focussed on what HE has done, how HE has done it, and what HE is going to do for the world.

Saying that I don't have a problem with it, do you? his permit is issued for a very small heavily regulated collection of I believe 4-6 animals, the founder stock and all progeny MUST have DNA testing to ensure future animals come from this source and not illegal animals. The founder stock are also never permitted to leave the Northern Territory. The traditional owners are going to receive a significant proportion of the income produced from this program. Just because I don't believe the overly dramatized conservation message that he is using to drive this campaign doesn't mean I don't believe what he is doing isn't a good thing.

Worst case scenario 6 animals are poached from their natural habitat, breeding efforts fail and the captive population dies out, and a lot of people lose their large deposit. Oenpellis are still legally able to be used as traditional food by the traditional owners so it is possible some individuals are removed from their habitat anyway. If this permit fails it has been stated by Gavin during his presentation that there will never be another one issued (again I think he has flair for being overdramatic).

Best case scenario traditional owners earn valuable income, poaching pressure is lifted off natural populations, the captive population thrives, the pythons are required for some conservation thing and then Gavin can let everyone in the world know how good he is.

I myself am very eager to obtain a captive bred pair, but that won't be anytime soon :)

Cheers
Daniel
 
nanoboy said:
That does not sound like conservation to me.
Click to expand...

It's not. But then, nobody said it was. We're not talking zoos now, we're talking the pet trade and there are much less conservation opportunities/realities in the pet biz than there are in the zoo game. Virtually non-existant.

nanoboy said:
I am unsure what the difference is between him and the poorer guy who likes snakes and can only afford $50 for a captive bred boa. I am guessing that it would probably be that one was captive bred and the other was an extremely rare specimen and was taken from the wild. What am I missing here, because it sounds like you guys have no problem with what Gavin is trying to do.
Click to expand...

The difference is a captive-bred boa is exotic, and importations of exotics are banned for two main reasons - disease, and the possibility of becoming a feral pest species. The Oenpelli Python poses neither problem.

The reason why I have no problem with Gavin Bedford collecting Oenpelli's is because Bedford is a scientist and he will be recording and most likely publishing all his findings re maintenance and breeding. He's a responsible scientist, who will not be recklessly collecting every snake he can get his hands on. As for conservation in the wild, the species is in an inaccessible location and although little is known about it in the wild and it is listed as Vulnerable (because of the relatively small location), there aren't any immediate threats.

:p

Hix
 
Thanks Daniel and Chlidonias. I would like to keep reptiles one day but it'll have to be sometime in the future :)
 
Thanks for the info, folks.

Well.... I don't know if I am totally convinced. We seem to agree that the project is not conservation based, but everyone seems ok with collecting them for the pet trade. I am not a big fan of the practice, given that:

a. there are already domestic animals that exist for the pet trade already (cats, dogs)
b. there are many snakes already available in the pet trade

Write an ARC (Australian Research Council) grant proposal to get funding if you really want to study these snakes and publish your findings. Your reputation as a scientist goes down the tubes when research is merely a spin-off of collecting animals to make money, and when you say things like "I want anyone who has an interest in this animal to own one, or even better a pair." So I have an interest, I have some cash in the bank, and I have no knowledge of keeping snakes, but he will sell me one, or better yet, a pair.

The guy sounds like a businessman who uses his PhD to bamboozle people into thinking he is doing something noble. Today it is the Oenpelli python and tomorrow it will be the Palm Cockatoo.
 
I think we are both agreeing on the same thing but from different sides of the topic.

Just to clear up the view point from the majority of the hobby, it is generally accepted that a collection is a good thing provided it is legal and is endorsed by a permit where necessary, people who take reptiles from the wild illegally to keep them or smuggle them are just as quickly confronted by most people in the reptile hobby as they would here. If it's legal its ok if it's illegal then it gets a lot of people upset quite quickly. Most herpers love the reptiles in the wild as much or more than the ones in an enclosure.

Cheers
Daniel
 
crocodile_dan said:
I think we are both agreeing on the same thing but from different sides of the topic.

Just to clear up the view point from the majority of the hobby, it is generally accepted that a collection is a good thing provided it is legal and is endorsed by a permit where necessary, people who take reptiles from the wild illegally to keep them or smuggle them are just as quickly confronted by most people in the reptile hobby as they would here. If it's legal its ok if it's illegal then it gets a lot of people upset quite quickly. Most herpers love the reptiles in the wild as much or more than the ones in an enclosure.

Cheers
Daniel
Click to expand...

Snakes are scary - but cool. :D I don't think that I would want one as a pet. Luckily, the vast majority of people are like me.
 
Not everyone has to like snakes, thats fine just so long as you don't encourage the shovel wielding mobs :) I have a passion for them so I think they are very misunderstood because I see a different side to them than most people. If you ever change your mind and want to see my view of snakes let me know nanoboy :)

Cheers
Daniel
 
crocodile_dan said:
Not everyone has to like snakes, thats fine just so long as you don't encourage the shovel wielding mobs :) I have a passion for them so I think they are very misunderstood because I see a different side to them than most people. If you ever change your mind and want to see my view of snakes let me know nanoboy :)

Cheers
Daniel
Click to expand...

Oh I quite like snakes - it's just that they scare me a bit. It must be some sort of primeval fear.

I would love to see your view of snakes! I think that we all would. Post some pics!
 
Ok here are 4 pics that best describe my views of snakes (I didn't realize how hard it would be to convey my view through photos but here I go)

I have put 4 photos up the first two are captives and two wild. To give you some detail on my keeping style I'm the type of keeper that doesn't handle my animals unless necessary (health or sometimes cleaning) or I feel that I will not stress them, I'm not one of those keepers with an anthropomorphized view of how much my python loves cuddles. Considering some of my pythons go almost 6 months without being touched, for me to be able to handle them freely speaks to their general nature and not to a keeper who has a snake that loves him :)

I don't know how good that was at showing the calm, inquisitive and placid nature of snakes but it's something :) As a disclaimer I do have a few animals that don't tolerate handling which is understandable, all I do is minimize any stress caused by me and they are fine to go about their business.

Cheers
Daniel
 

Attachments

  • P4240033.JPG
    P4240033.JPG
    496.2 KB · Views: 13
  • PB120001.JPG
    PB120001.JPG
    285.9 KB · Views: 13
  • P5180005.JPG
    P5180005.JPG
    465.1 KB · Views: 13
  • P7110150 copy.JPG
    P7110150 copy.JPG
    359.6 KB · Views: 8
I was beginning to think that I was the only person who employed a 'hands off' approach with their snakes. Good to know I'm not alone!

:p

Hix
 
Agree with pretty much everything Hix and Dan say (and great pics Dan).

Just one small thing to add:
Hix said:
there aren't any immediate threats.
Click to expand...

Although it's habitat (see: http://www.environment.gov.au/biodi...rnhem-plateau-shrubland-complex-factsheet.pdf) and also some of it's prey are threatened by inappropriate fire regimes (too hot/too frequent). There's a lack of data to assess the direct impact of this on the python. Therefore, hopefully Bedford will be contributing to ongoing monitoring of numbers in the wild.
 
Awesome pics, crocodile dan! Thanks for sharing! Remind me of the species please - I think one is a jaguar python and one is a black headed python.
 
nanoboy said:
Awesome pics, crocodile dan! Thanks for sharing! Remind me of the species please - I think one is a jaguar python and one is a black headed python.
Click to expand...
I think they are an amethystine python first, then "jaguar python", then green tree snake, then black-headed python. But my Australian snake ID skills aren't really top-notch so I'm open to correction.
 
The first is an Inland Carpet (or Murray-Darling, as Steve said), the second looks like a Jag but I'm guessing is just a nicely marked Jungle Carpet, and the last two are as Chlidonias said, a Green Tree Snake juvenile and Black-headed Python.

Steve Robinson said:
I employ a "hands-off" approach with my Death Adders!
Click to expand...

A very wise approach. I know a guy who free-handles his Death Adders (and his Tigers, and his Eastern Browns). And no, they are not venomoids.

Having made the above statement I should emphasise I am NOT promoting freehandling of venomous snakes, as it is an extremely dangerous practice.

:p

Hix
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top