General Circus Poll
- Thread starter Zambar
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Why are you so in denial about the fact that it might be true? They do stuff like that in the UK, scaring horses at hunts and, like I said, killing foxes to protest hunts (This I have seen). I'm not certain that it's true (word of mouth), I'm just saying it's possible and that they're just as bad.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
There is complete rest for the elephants in Kerala for the entire wet season, unless for special garlanding ( e.g. anniversery of Guruvayoor Kesavan)
Dan
Well-Known Member
Have you heard members of PETA and the like have taken jobs at Ringlings, beaten animals, filmed it and passed it on to give the place a bad name? I'm just saying, don't tar with the same brush, although we all know what you are like about space for animals
As stated above, I find this conspiracy theory of yours... well, less credible to put it mildly.
Here are a a few examples of videos on YouTube allegedly shot at Ringling Bros - they may of course have been shot at other circuses, but that is not the point.
Do you SERIOUSLY suggest that PETA would be responsible for what we see in videos like these?! I still think (and hope!) that maybe you are joking! If not, this argument of yours must be the strangest thing I have ever read at ZooChat, ashely-h...
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Dan I'm just saying it's a theory I heard, I have no evidence, I'm just saying it's down to what people believe. After all, PETA aren't all fine and dandy: PETA Kills Animals | PetaKillsAnimals.com
Dan
Well-Known Member
That is not the way you put it at first:
"Have you heard members of PETA and the like have taken jobs at Ringlings, beaten animals, filmed it and passed it on to give the place a bad name?" - post nr 17
"Apparently it's a true one..." - post nr 19
"Why are you so in denial about the fact that it might be true?" - post nr 23
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Now, suddenly, it is "just a theory" that you "heard".
OK...
"Have you heard members of PETA and the like have taken jobs at Ringlings, beaten animals, filmed it and passed it on to give the place a bad name?" - post nr 17
"Apparently it's a true one..." - post nr 19
"Why are you so in denial about the fact that it might be true?" - post nr 23
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Now, suddenly, it is "just a theory" that you "heard".
OK...
It is word of mouth, but I wouldn't be surprised due to what they've been known to do in the UK. I never said it was definitely true, my second post says it's "apparently" true, and my 3rd post says "I'm not 100% sure as It's just something I heard". Granted my first post did sound a bit like I new it happened, so I apologise if that came across.
My point is that there's two sides to everything and I just wondered why you are so surprised. I even heard a case of some killing 2 red pandas in a zoo.
EDIT: And the story about the red pandas was on here.
My point is that there's two sides to everything and I just wondered why you are so surprised. I even heard a case of some killing 2 red pandas in a zoo.
EDIT: And the story about the red pandas was on here.
Those videos posted by Dan were not really shocking, as they are routine circus videos showing atrocities that are repeated over and over again. The tiger pacing back and forth in a cage that is a few feet wide was pathetic, and I'm sure that instead of 7 minutes that video could have had 7 hours of similar footage. Thank goodness that many more nations worldwide are completely banning all performing animal circuses, and the planet is better off without that kind of junk. Disgusting treatment of animals is never more disheartening than in circuses, and eventually those outdated modes of entertainment will be gone forever. I'm glad that I live in a country where certain areas have made peforming animal circuses extinct.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
I have a question,
are the best circuses or the best zoos most proper for animals. The main pro of a good zoo would be a spacious home, but in a circuses a a lot of good enrichment...
are the best circuses or the best zoos most proper for animals. The main pro of a good zoo would be a spacious home, but in a circuses a a lot of good enrichment...
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
so even the best circuses use the whip?
What is enrichment? If you answer this question, you have your answer. Enrichment - real, true enrichment means animals need to be housed in a proper social environment with the possibility to raise their own young, they need a spacious, well equipped, stimulating habitat with vegetation, space to get away from each other and the visitors. Details depending on the species, certainly.
In a circus environment, most species can`t be kept in a proper social environment; giraffes - the largest giraffe herd in a circus is 2 males!!; white rhinos and hippos - only single animals are exhibited; elephants - no travelling circus breeds elephants and keeps a family group of them because (sub-)adult males can`t be transported and handled in direct contact - Ringling seperates the babys when they´re less then 2 years old and sends them on the road without their mothers!!; bears - they aren`t particularly social and need space to get away from each other, impossible in any bear cage I`ve ever seen in a circus; same for tigers... and so on and on..
Circusses can only build outdoor enclosures which are portable - so either light fences or hot wire - it`s totally impossible to put the same sort of equipment/vegetation in it as a stationary zoo. I`ve already said this, in Germany most circusses have to use places with concrete floor, and there, most circus animals spend most of their life on concrete. Certainly without life vegetation, mud wallows, ect. ect. ect.
I don`t understand how you can believe that circus animals have a more enriched life - their environment changes every week, yes, but true "enrichment" (proper social environment, vegetation, climbing/hiding..) is totally missing. I do not consider the fact that animals are dragged through the country and spend hours and hours in dark and small trailers as "enrichment", nor the fact that they spend day after day in not properly equipped, small "enclosures". I do not consider performing in shows - which usually only takes place once or twice a day and rarely lasts longer then 10 minutes - as "enrichment", especially since the tricks are always the same. If you add 1 hour of training every day (which, after my obersations, is usually grossly overestimated) you have less then 2 hours of "enriching training" vs. more then 22 hours in a bad environment that doesn`t meet the animal`s basic needs.
In a circus environment, most species can`t be kept in a proper social environment; giraffes - the largest giraffe herd in a circus is 2 males!!; white rhinos and hippos - only single animals are exhibited; elephants - no travelling circus breeds elephants and keeps a family group of them because (sub-)adult males can`t be transported and handled in direct contact - Ringling seperates the babys when they´re less then 2 years old and sends them on the road without their mothers!!; bears - they aren`t particularly social and need space to get away from each other, impossible in any bear cage I`ve ever seen in a circus; same for tigers... and so on and on..
Circusses can only build outdoor enclosures which are portable - so either light fences or hot wire - it`s totally impossible to put the same sort of equipment/vegetation in it as a stationary zoo. I`ve already said this, in Germany most circusses have to use places with concrete floor, and there, most circus animals spend most of their life on concrete. Certainly without life vegetation, mud wallows, ect. ect. ect.
I don`t understand how you can believe that circus animals have a more enriched life - their environment changes every week, yes, but true "enrichment" (proper social environment, vegetation, climbing/hiding..) is totally missing. I do not consider the fact that animals are dragged through the country and spend hours and hours in dark and small trailers as "enrichment", nor the fact that they spend day after day in not properly equipped, small "enclosures". I do not consider performing in shows - which usually only takes place once or twice a day and rarely lasts longer then 10 minutes - as "enrichment", especially since the tricks are always the same. If you add 1 hour of training every day (which, after my obersations, is usually grossly overestimated) you have less then 2 hours of "enriching training" vs. more then 22 hours in a bad environment that doesn`t meet the animal`s basic needs.
Training alone is not enrichment, it can be cognitive enrichment (or in some cases social enrichment) but only used within a good enrichment programme. PRT training and operant conditioning offer the animals in zoos power and choice - they choose to participate in training programmes and are rewarded - circus animals have no choice, therefore not enrichment.
I have two main problems with wild animals in circuses;
Firstly, to my mind the only reason to have wild animals in captivity is for conservation, education and entertainment - not entertainment soully. Show me a circus supporting conservation efforts and educating the public on animals' natural behaviours, instead of breeding hybrid, inbred surplus animals.
Secondly, within the zoo community people work hard (in the UK) to meet certain legislation such as the EC Zoos Directive, the Zoo Licensing Act, the Secretary of State's Standards of Modern Zoo Practice, the Animal Welfare Act, Animal Health Act, etc. Circuses come under one Act which hasn't been updated in decades, and (in the UK) don't have to comply with the Animal Welfare Act - meaning they don't have to obey the "five freedoms", so of course the animal's welfare is compromised. This is the reason that I suspect the Defra report is highly flawed, as well as too many people in the (UK) government with vested interest in circuses.
Sorry to sound like the RSPCA there, but so often when I introduce a member of the public to an animal born in a circus they respond with "Well, s/he must be xx years old, because they don't have wild animals in circuses anymore", and I have to inform them otherwise, that yes people still do make money from getting a tiger to balance on a ball...it's frustrating.
I have two main problems with wild animals in circuses;
Firstly, to my mind the only reason to have wild animals in captivity is for conservation, education and entertainment - not entertainment soully. Show me a circus supporting conservation efforts and educating the public on animals' natural behaviours, instead of breeding hybrid, inbred surplus animals.
Secondly, within the zoo community people work hard (in the UK) to meet certain legislation such as the EC Zoos Directive, the Zoo Licensing Act, the Secretary of State's Standards of Modern Zoo Practice, the Animal Welfare Act, Animal Health Act, etc. Circuses come under one Act which hasn't been updated in decades, and (in the UK) don't have to comply with the Animal Welfare Act - meaning they don't have to obey the "five freedoms", so of course the animal's welfare is compromised. This is the reason that I suspect the Defra report is highly flawed, as well as too many people in the (UK) government with vested interest in circuses.
Sorry to sound like the RSPCA there, but so often when I introduce a member of the public to an animal born in a circus they respond with "Well, s/he must be xx years old, because they don't have wild animals in circuses anymore", and I have to inform them otherwise, that yes people still do make money from getting a tiger to balance on a ball...it's frustrating.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
well, I'm sorry Yassa, I've always believed enrichment meant activity , but now I know what it is.
You say about whips but every horse owner uses them and they NEVER come under fire. I think it's a type of enrichment as it gives them something to do, and like I said previously, the change of environment obviously helps. On zoochat I hear the never ending praise of rotation exhibits and how great a form of enrichment it must be. There's pictures of Circus Krone's elephants browsing trough a forest and swimming in a pretty big river. How many zoo elephants get to do that? And Yassa, there's plenty of zoos that keep animals in un-natural social groups. Also, I don't know if Ringling breeds on tour but they do take their bull, I know one of their ex employees and he showed me pics of their bull on tour. He also showed me pictures of the mothers and babies in the tent and told me that they didn't always hand rear them.
Ringling has never bred "on tour" in the last 20 years. The breeding bulls are all in the Florida breeding/retirement center. The only bulls they had on tour in the last decade were the bull calves, at least until he was about 7 years old when he "vanished" from the shows. And the very big, castrated male from Patrizia Zerbini "Luke" who is not owned by Ringling has performed in the "Gold tour". I am 100% sure that they never had any mothers with the calves on tour in the last decade - like the bulls, the mothers stay at the breeding facility. The calves that are chosen for travelling are usually weaned when they are 1,5-2 years old and then taken on tour at age 2. This is what happened with the calves born in 2002 and before. You must have seen pictures of the calves with other females and being lied to, or pics older then 15 years. I have not heard anything about the youngest calves born from 2005 on travelling, so maybe they are still with their mothers.
Certainly not all animals in zoos are kept in ideal social groupings, but at least it is possible to build enclosures suitable for good social groups, while it is totally impossible for a circus to travel with a breeding bull elephant, or a breeding group of rhinos, hippos or giraffes.
By the way, circus Krone is the worst possible example for good elephant husbandry you could have picked - I have seen that circus a number of times in the last years and I can tell you that these elephants usually never see a forest nor a river. They hardly ever leave their tent!! Circus Krone is the largest circus in Germany and they never have much space for outdoor enclosures, all their tents and trucks hardly fit on an average circus place. And their elephants don`t come along and have to be kept seperate in 3 or even 4 groups (that changes), while they never have more then 2 outdoor paddocks. These paddocks are hardly ever used, because some elephants have learned to climb out and the trainer needs to keep an eye on them all the time when they are outside. Seems he doesn`t have the time to do that more then two- three hours in the moring IN THE BEST CASE. The rest of time, the eles are chained in their tent. I have never seen such bad swaying like in the Krone circus elephants. And most of their elephants have some sort of foot problems.. no wonder, they hardly ever get to walk on grass or sand. Krone is hell for elephants, I have seen a number of smaller circusses doing much better. The paddocks may be small and have concrete floor and no pool nor mud, but at least there are a number of smaller circusses whose elephants are outside all day (before being chained for the night in the tent...).
@ dragon: You`re correct that activity is the goal of enrichment, but not all "activity" is positive. In animals, enrichment shall encourage natural behavoir (and though this, enhance the wellbeing of the animal through stimulating body and mind). A child that is forced to work 12 hours each day in a mine certainly has a very active life, but not in a way that would be beneficial to body and soul.
Yet I very much doubt that even with performing, circus animals are more active then zoo animals in a good environment - circus enclosures are usually only a fraction of good zoo enclosures in size, and without any vegetation and euqippment, animals have no reason to move.
Certainly not all animals in zoos are kept in ideal social groupings, but at least it is possible to build enclosures suitable for good social groups, while it is totally impossible for a circus to travel with a breeding bull elephant, or a breeding group of rhinos, hippos or giraffes.
By the way, circus Krone is the worst possible example for good elephant husbandry you could have picked - I have seen that circus a number of times in the last years and I can tell you that these elephants usually never see a forest nor a river. They hardly ever leave their tent!! Circus Krone is the largest circus in Germany and they never have much space for outdoor enclosures, all their tents and trucks hardly fit on an average circus place. And their elephants don`t come along and have to be kept seperate in 3 or even 4 groups (that changes), while they never have more then 2 outdoor paddocks. These paddocks are hardly ever used, because some elephants have learned to climb out and the trainer needs to keep an eye on them all the time when they are outside. Seems he doesn`t have the time to do that more then two- three hours in the moring IN THE BEST CASE. The rest of time, the eles are chained in their tent. I have never seen such bad swaying like in the Krone circus elephants. And most of their elephants have some sort of foot problems.. no wonder, they hardly ever get to walk on grass or sand. Krone is hell for elephants, I have seen a number of smaller circusses doing much better. The paddocks may be small and have concrete floor and no pool nor mud, but at least there are a number of smaller circusses whose elephants are outside all day (before being chained for the night in the tent...).
@ dragon: You`re correct that activity is the goal of enrichment, but not all "activity" is positive. In animals, enrichment shall encourage natural behavoir (and though this, enhance the wellbeing of the animal through stimulating body and mind). A child that is forced to work 12 hours each day in a mine certainly has a very active life, but not in a way that would be beneficial to body and soul.
Yet I very much doubt that even with performing, circus animals are more active then zoo animals in a good environment - circus enclosures are usually only a fraction of good zoo enclosures in size, and without any vegetation and euqippment, animals have no reason to move.