Thanks, the bull was huge so I assume it was Luke, looked very much like Joe from Krone. And these pics were quite possibly over 15 years old as the guy's pretty old himself hasn't been in the circus for years. I only judged Krone by pictures, I actually said that in my previous post.
General Circus Poll
- Thread starter Zambar
- Start date
If the pictures were that old, it was probably Tommy aka "King Tusk". He wasn`t particulary tall, but had a very impressive set of tusks. He never bred and was retired to the breeding/retirement center in Florida somewhere in the 90`th where he died in 2002, according to asianelephant.net 56 years old. He was one of the handful of bulls who survived their 20`th birthday in a circus and apparently stayed "manageable" in adulthood. Who knows, mybe something wasn`t right with his hormones, that would explain why he never bred.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
yeah horse races over here, usally mention winner's jockeys that used excessive use of the whip. Last years Melbourne cup winner viewed was great. " Now thats great to see Blake Shinn didn't pull out the whip, he just pushed him hard."
I'm not a huge fan of animals in circuses. It can't be beneficial to ride around in trailers and train cars all year for hours on end. Lots of noise, too. I used to love the circus when I was a kid b/c of the animals. Then my mom took me to see the animals at a pre-show at the tent near the colisseum. Some handler could be seen and heard beating the bejeezus out of a horse in front of everyone visiting. It was definately excessive, b/c one of his co-workers grabbed him by the shirt and threatened him with the same treatment. I can't help but wonder what goes on when nobody is looking. I also saw a program for a circus traveling with hippos, which I cannot imagine being good. How do you meet that kind of specialized animal's needs? None of those animals would do any of thise tricks voluntarily. It's all reinforcement of some sort, some of it negative.
In my opinion there are no positives to keeping animals in a circus. At the end of the day they are WILD ANIMALS and should not be encouraged to perform (I have never seen tigers jumping through rings of fire in the wild/zoos- with the exception of a poor zoo in France where animals were fed biscuits by the public and Lions, Tigers, and Leopards were kept together in cramped conditions which I believe is only big enough to house an anteater.). I know zoos aren't perfect, but they provide a much more realistic environment for animals than circuses do. So my vote has to be NO.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
I totally agree with you. ( knowing that circuses don't offer actual proper enrichment)
I think the two reasons animals should be in a zoo is for breeding or rehabilatation, at least it is for a good purpose,
Take example Ringling Bros. breeding center. Once cows are at a certain age they are going to be shipped to perform in the circus, and if they are lucky may get to produce one calf. They will only come back when they are going to be retired.
Sorry dragon, but your information is again wrong and misleading. Can you please get the facts right before posting??
Ringling`s breeding females are never performing, but living permanently in the breeding/retirement facility in Polk City, Florida. I just checked the studbook (which can be found online) and the database from asianelephant.net, and 5 of the 6 females which bred in the last years have not travelled in a long time and are having calf after calf. Only one, Bonnie, was inseminated by AI while she was on tour and then returned to give birth and raise her calf (Obama, the last calf born at Ringling`s). I have no information if she will stay there to be bred again, or if they will sent her on the raod again, or maybe if they wnat to breed her again by AI while she is travelling. I doubt you have any information on this, neither! If you want to say with your message that Ringling is not breeding all its females in breeding age and could produce more calves, well, then you are correct. There are serveral females in prime breeding age (or who have been in prime breeding age until recently) who are performing and never had the opportunity to breed. But what you wrote above is incorrect.
I am glad that Ringling is not producing even more calves, though - breeding baby elephants to take them away from their mother long before they are weaned, subject them to circus training and chaining and then dragging them through the country for the only purpose of making money and entertaining humans is a terrible thing.
Ringling`s breeding females are never performing, but living permanently in the breeding/retirement facility in Polk City, Florida. I just checked the studbook (which can be found online) and the database from asianelephant.net, and 5 of the 6 females which bred in the last years have not travelled in a long time and are having calf after calf. Only one, Bonnie, was inseminated by AI while she was on tour and then returned to give birth and raise her calf (Obama, the last calf born at Ringling`s). I have no information if she will stay there to be bred again, or if they will sent her on the raod again, or maybe if they wnat to breed her again by AI while she is travelling. I doubt you have any information on this, neither! If you want to say with your message that Ringling is not breeding all its females in breeding age and could produce more calves, well, then you are correct. There are serveral females in prime breeding age (or who have been in prime breeding age until recently) who are performing and never had the opportunity to breed. But what you wrote above is incorrect.
I am glad that Ringling is not producing even more calves, though - breeding baby elephants to take them away from their mother long before they are weaned, subject them to circus training and chaining and then dragging them through the country for the only purpose of making money and entertaining humans is a terrible thing.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
ok, but doesn't that mean possible breeding cows, cows that could be used for breeding, ( that are in their youth) are going to be used for the show? That is unfortunate but I guess understandable cause how will the elephant continue in the acts? They can't import cows easily anymore.
Leptonyx
Well-Known Member
Are we just opposed to keeping "wild" animals in circuses, or ALL animals? I only ask because I've seen a couple of dogs in circuses, and I've seen them right after in their trainer's trailer. I can't imagine being a dog in a circus would be THAT horrible- but then again I'm assuming they'd live with the trainers, enjoy performing, and have a bunch of buddies to hang out with 
I'd imagine it would be the same for birds- they're so sensitive to their environment- it would make more sense for a trainer to treat them as their own pet vs. having to replace a bird every couple of months when they got severely plucked/stressed/or dropped dead (and if so, I'd agree with the previous argument that the change in environment might be beneficial to these pets).
For the most part I agree that the large/exotic animals probably shouldn't travel in a circus, but I think it's all relative to the life the animal would have had. I'm thinking primarily on horses and the slaughterhouse, or tigers/bears being skinned for their hides, or dogs being euthanized at the shelter because no one wants them...certainly life at the circus is better than any of those alternatives?
**DISCLAIMER: I have no idea where circuses get their animals and/or if any of the animals I've mentioned are still IN circuses- just some hypothetical situations to make a point
**
I'd imagine it would be the same for birds- they're so sensitive to their environment- it would make more sense for a trainer to treat them as their own pet vs. having to replace a bird every couple of months when they got severely plucked/stressed/or dropped dead (and if so, I'd agree with the previous argument that the change in environment might be beneficial to these pets). For the most part I agree that the large/exotic animals probably shouldn't travel in a circus, but I think it's all relative to the life the animal would have had. I'm thinking primarily on horses and the slaughterhouse, or tigers/bears being skinned for their hides, or dogs being euthanized at the shelter because no one wants them...certainly life at the circus is better than any of those alternatives?
**DISCLAIMER: I have no idea where circuses get their animals and/or if any of the animals I've mentioned are still IN circuses- just some hypothetical situations to make a point
**
mweb08
Well-Known Member
I'm not that against the performing of animals, but otherwise I agree.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
I think most people think wild animals are bad in circuses as oppsed to more domesticated animals such as horses and dogs because we know better care for them as more experince and success in the westernal world is with dogs and horses as opposed to say elephants. Not saying that wild animals have the up on other animals.
Blackduiker
Well-Known Member
Blackduiker
Oh many of the activists don't want to see horses and dogs performing either. Many don't even want us refered to as "owners" of our pets(domestic dogs, cats, birds, etc.)any longer. Some here locally, and probably most everywhere else, have pushed for legislation to have us with pets refered to as their "guardians."
Oh many of the activists don't want to see horses and dogs performing either. Many don't even want us refered to as "owners" of our pets(domestic dogs, cats, birds, etc.)any longer. Some here locally, and probably most everywhere else, have pushed for legislation to have us with pets refered to as their "guardians."
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dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
hm, well said.
Sakura
Active Member
I do not believe animals should be shipped around to perform in circuses. If it was a static circus maybe more domesticated animals could be used as someone said horses and dogs. Incorporated with human performers it would be interesting.
A friend went to the Olympics last year with his horse. The horse had to go into different levels of quarantine over several weeks before it arrived in Hong Kong where the equestrian competitions were held. Horses like many other animals have to stand the whole time they are traveling which in this case amounted to about 24 hours. They had veterinary personnel with them the whole time but it is a strain on the horses. His horse was ok but other horses had a fever when they arrived not helped by the extreme temperatures they were not used to, some were not able to perform. The facilities were amazing with water spraying from both sides to cool them as they walked the horses in a large marque to exercise them. All the horses were examined by Olympic staff on a regular basis. Maybe this is off topic but another reason for animals not to be used in traveling circuses.
A friend went to the Olympics last year with his horse. The horse had to go into different levels of quarantine over several weeks before it arrived in Hong Kong where the equestrian competitions were held. Horses like many other animals have to stand the whole time they are traveling which in this case amounted to about 24 hours. They had veterinary personnel with them the whole time but it is a strain on the horses. His horse was ok but other horses had a fever when they arrived not helped by the extreme temperatures they were not used to, some were not able to perform. The facilities were amazing with water spraying from both sides to cool them as they walked the horses in a large marque to exercise them. All the horses were examined by Olympic staff on a regular basis. Maybe this is off topic but another reason for animals not to be used in traveling circuses.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Sakura: Judging from your post, it would thus be not correct to travel with animals at all...
The general private husbandry of horses is an "interesting" matter on its own. From what I have witnessed, a good circus might provide better care (and movement) to its horses than quite a bunch of the horse owners on the private sector, who let their horses stay in their boxes almost all day long, and travel with them to competitions as often as possible, no matter how the horse feels like it. And unlike the ones in the competitions, the horses in circuses are not drugged...
Leptonyx is correct: what about domestic animals in a circus? I happen to know some Border collies and poodles that would go bonkers out of joy if they could perform their tricks again and again every day in front of an audience-and would consider having constantly a new tree to pee at as another bonus... Not to mention some workhorses, or rather workpigs, workgoats and even workcats
"Guardian"? Yeah, right; and if anything happens involving your pet, you're still the legal owner. What a load of PC activist nonsense...
The general private husbandry of horses is an "interesting" matter on its own. From what I have witnessed, a good circus might provide better care (and movement) to its horses than quite a bunch of the horse owners on the private sector, who let their horses stay in their boxes almost all day long, and travel with them to competitions as often as possible, no matter how the horse feels like it. And unlike the ones in the competitions, the horses in circuses are not drugged...
Leptonyx is correct: what about domestic animals in a circus? I happen to know some Border collies and poodles that would go bonkers out of joy if they could perform their tricks again and again every day in front of an audience-and would consider having constantly a new tree to pee at as another bonus... Not to mention some workhorses, or rather workpigs, workgoats and even workcats
"Guardian"? Yeah, right; and if anything happens involving your pet, you're still the legal owner. What a load of PC activist nonsense...
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Sakura
Active Member
I should have qualified this statement as I was actually talking about large wild animals.
The situation with horses was just an illustration of how travel can upset them and circuses could be traveling long distances.
As far as drugging is concerned I have no knowledge on that or what type of drugging you are referring to maybe you are thinking more of horse racing.
Unless it is Circus Solie I don't go to circuses.
http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://w...result&usg=AFQjCNHqCUOzNu7t-729WpDxS9sAFeJfXA
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Sakura: So shipping small wild animals around is OK for you?
Even zoo animals have to travel now and then; however, I agree with you that frequent and long travelling can be stressful for animals-even if some seem to get better used to it than others.
And no, I'm not just talking about race horses. Take a look at the link, or ask your friend
German Olympic equestrian team disbanded over doping allegations
If you don't go to circuses other than Cirque du Soleil, then how to rightfully judge other circuses, may they be Cirque Nouveau or not?
Even zoo animals have to travel now and then; however, I agree with you that frequent and long travelling can be stressful for animals-even if some seem to get better used to it than others.
And no, I'm not just talking about race horses. Take a look at the link, or ask your friend
German Olympic equestrian team disbanded over doping allegations
If you don't go to circuses other than Cirque du Soleil, then how to rightfully judge other circuses, may they be Cirque Nouveau or not?
I found this video link on theage.com, a major newspaper in Melbourne, and I check the site frequently for the latest Aussie news. This video was on the page with the major headlines, and it shows Ringling Brothers circus elephants being struck repeatedly with bullhooks. Yet another in a long line of videos that can be found online showing animal abuse in circuses.
Video - Circus elephants beaten: PETA - The Age
Video - Circus elephants beaten: PETA - The Age
CritterBlog
Well-Known Member
This one was shot in 1999 by Peta. "Make em Scream". I would like to make those handlers scream.
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It is bad enough that elephants and other animals are forced to travel from city to city in cramped, puny little trailers, but then they are chained, beaten into submission and forced to do tricks to entertain the public. No wonder many progressive communities all across the world have banned circuses with animals. In my Province of British Columbia there are about 21 cities and towns that have completely banned any animal-performing circuses, and that sentiment is echoed all across Canada. I once read that the number of cities worldwide that still allow exotic animals in circuses has fallen 75% over the past 30 years.