Tierpark Hagenbeck Hagenbecks Elephants

Sitara

Sitara

Well-Known Member
Last Friday, 21.11.2008, Yashoda gave birth to her 2nd son. The little bullcalf was born on sand within the group and without any human help. He is the 4th calf of the 29 year old cow after Chamundi (*1992), Corny (*1996), both now Munster Zoo, and Kandy (*2003), who assists und supports her mother with the just born calf. Same as with Kandy, Thai (*2004) and Shila (*2007), who welcomes the half-brother very much, the little elephant was born "free" within the familiar members of the herd.

Find the first video of the newborn here: Nachwuchs in Rüssels Heim
 
As it was said here, unlike the first birth in the new house, this one was in a small part of the heard.
 
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The birth of Husseins´ 13th descendant is a good opportunity to open a special thread, I think. ;) At the moment he is on top of the list! :)

Hagenbeck is one of the best breeders of E.M. (Asian elephants) in Europe as well, where every year took place the “First European Management School”, a kind of international workshop for elephantkeepers, veterinarians, biologists etc. Find some (english) facts here: First European Elephant Management School HH
 
Sitara said:
The birth of Husseins´ 13th descendant is a good opportunity to open a special thread, I think. ;) At the moment he is on top of the list! :)
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No, he's not yet! How about:

Naing Thein (15 descendents)
Vance (19 descendents)
Motek (15 descendents)
Siam (15 descendents)
Thonglaw (15 descendents)

However, he might get to the top since they seem to have planned his next stop already (if a new breeding bull for Hagenbeck can be found): Dublin, so it's possible that he eventually tops Vance. But there's competition for him (like Radza, who's picking up)... :)

But, yes, it is good that breeding of elephants is now working out in more and more zoos and that in more and more cases they can move towards stable family groups.
 
That is great news! hopefully when he goes to Dublin in the next few years, we can see at least around two more giant bundles of joy!

Elly said:
Siam (15 descendents)
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Does Siam have 15?? I thought he only had 14, correct me if I'm wrong, but here is the list that is posted on asianelephant.net and elephant.se
1. Sahib †
2. Madura †
3. stillbirth †
4.--- †
5. Kim
6. Kuala †
7. Lola †
8.Ben †
9. Salem †
10. Sammy
11. Nina
12 stillbirth †
13 stillbirth †
14 Thisiam
 
dragon(ele)nerd said:
Does Siam have 15?? I thought he only had 14, correct me if I'm wrong, but here is the list that is posted on asianelephant.net and elephant.se
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I checked on elephant.se and according to them there were 15. In the list of asianelephant.net one stillborn from June 72 is missing.
 
One more or less, who cares about!? There are existing various lists online with different datas. Fact is, that Hussein is one of the best European breeding-bulls of e.m. alive in the moment! :p By the way, as I already mentioned in another thread, Thura will calve ~ May/June next year again.;)

Generally I agree with you, Elly:
it is good that breeding of elephants is now working out in more and more zoos and that in more and more cases they can move towards stable family groups.
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But, in my opinion, it is also important, to let these animals with such high cognition the “natural mating” instead of artificial insemination (a.i.) as it is becoming more and more common in the USA and nowadays also in Australia (Melbourne Zoo), i read these days. I recommend to pay more respect to this social act between two animals and to the dignity of the creature.
 
Sitara said:
But, in my opinion, it is also important, to let these animals with such high cognition the “natural mating” instead of artificial insemination (a.i.) as it is becoming more and more common in the USA and nowadays also in Australia (Melbourne Zoo), i read these days. I recommend to pay more respect to this social act between two animals and to the dignity of the creature.
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We seem to agree on a lot. But for me there's also the question on where the bulls are going to be. With a.i. you don't even need bull housings, you don't even need a bull, just some semen (fly it out of Azia - instant fresh blood?).:(

With the breeding successes also comes the question on what to do with the left-over bulls. All those big bundles of male joy have to move on after some years.
I know that in Europe some zoos have started an all male group, but teenage bulls actually need an adult male to keep them in line (that's the career move they are planning for Alexander - now staying in Amersfoort).

Modern zoos need to be more than just a stamp collection and face the consequences of keeping animals like elephants. How are baby elephants made .... and how is the social structure within the elephant kingdom ... There's no bundles of joy in an all male group, but still a very good lesson to tell!
 
I do agree to the fact that natural breeding is probably the best resource if it can be accessed, A.I is also good for bio-diversity, but then some attempts have been done with bulls very nearby zoos. In fact the first successful A.I birth was done with semen from a bullat Dickerson Park zoo and with the cow Moola also at the zoo.

Cocerning teenage bulls, I think that when adult bulls have a long enough descendent line e.g 13-15, they can become patriachs. That was the plan with Alexander I believe having a very long line of offspring and doing his job perfectly, there needs to be room for other bulls ;) Does anyone know the rough date when Alexander is leaving Amersfoort?

oh and by the way they have named him Russelchen
 
dragon(ele)nerd said:
Cocerning teenage bulls, I think that when adult bulls have a long enough descendent line e.g 13-15, they can become patriachs. That was the plan with Alexander I believe having a very long line of offspring and doing his job perfectly, there needs to be room for other bulls ;) Does anyone know the rough date when Alexander is leaving Amersfoort?
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Given the fact that they need to plan the transport to Spain, I guess this will be next spring (you don't want to transport an elephant when it's freezing). There is no real hurry into moving Sammy back - the longer he stays away from the herd, the better chances are of him getting more self convidence (Sammy came to Amersfoort when he was very young and has been "mothered" by some of the current Amersfoort cows - especially Chit Mi Mi, so he lacked the guts to approach them for mating. That's why it was decided to move him over to Rotterdam temporarely, where they have capacity for two grown bulls).

Btw, Alexanders' farewell tour seems to have worked out. They are expecting a baby elephant in Antwerp and there are rumours about Jula being pregnant (he had to leave Rotterdam because of Bangka).
 
Thanks for the info! yeah apparently sammy and Timber are great friends and after Alexander left Timber came which is good in the sense that Bangka and him have a great possiblity of producing a baby. Good news for Jula wonder if her ranking will change after she gives birth??
 
dragon(ele)nerd said:
apparently sammy and Timber are great friends
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I don't think so, but in Rotterdam they have two seperate indoor and outdoor bull enclosures so they can be completely separated. Sammy has been in musth during his stay, so no friendship to be expected there.
 
Elly said:
I don't think so, but in Rotterdam they have two seperate indoor and outdoor bull enclosures so they can be completely separated. Sammy has been in musth during his stay, so no friendship to be expected there.
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oh, I see ah well didn't get it for an article actually from another forum I was browsing! Has Sammy been in Musth all this time? I know that Musth periods usally last longer in captivity, but he has been there since October last year.
 
According to his headkeeper from Amersfoort (who regularly visits him) he went in to musth September this year.
 
Back to Hagenbecks elephants in Germany/Hamburg: The little bull-calf got his name Shahrukh yesterday/today about midnight after a short competition, announced in a common Late-Night-TV-Talk-Show. It is an Asian name, which means in the Indian mythology “king” and the name of a famous Indian bollywood-star, too.

@ dragon: the German “Rüsselchen“ means „little trunk“ and is a common petname while an elephantcalf isn´t named. ;)
 
...and "Rüssels Heim" means "home of the trunks"! Not to confuse with the well-kown city "Rüsselsheim", where are produced cars, in another part of Germany!;)
 
Elly said:
We seem to agree on a lot. But for me there's also the question on where the bulls are going to be. With a.i. you don't even need bull housings, you don't even need a bull, just some semen (fly it out of Azia - instant fresh blood?).:(

With the breeding successes also comes the question on what to do with the left-over bulls. All those big bundles of male joy have to move on after some years.
Click to expand...

Sure, there are still a lot of problems to solve such as find more places for “bachelor-groups” of young elephant-bulls and to create gen-pools. But human beings have also to bear in mind the elephants´ close relationship and their social ties and that they are sensitive and very intelligent. In my opinion it is not the right way to abuse them as “breeding-machines”, neither the bulls nor the cows. There is the long and strict training especially of the elephant-cows (and for the bulls it is also a disagreeable situation in the ERC) they have to pass to carry out an a.i. And most of the "a.i.- calves" are males. This is the perversion! A.i. must be an exception. Zoological institutions, who want to breed and to have elephantbabys with the consequence of more visitors and more money, have to reconsider these facts before. They have to build bull-houses (if possible for min. 2 adult bulls!) and to join something like a special “fund”, where every breeder has to pay for establishing an acceptable place for young elephant-bulls. This would be the best way for the elephants. Elephant-management is always an interesting business and new adventure indeed.
 
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