How to make a career (ethically) capturing and dealing wildlife in 2023?

[La Cucaracha]

So believe it or not, I did not start this thread to convince people this career idea or the wildlife trade in general is a good thing. In fact, it was to hear out the people who dislike the whole idea. I liked the discussion about sourcing animals that are feral or invasive; even though I've been portrayed as wearing an Indiana Jones hat with devil horns poking out in the process.
However, I think it needs to be said now that I wouldn't do anything illegal, and that poaching is bad. Ie I would not collect reptiles in the state of Nevada, because it is illegal. That is non negotiable, even if some people don't have the same level of ethics I do.

 

[birdsandbats]

Regarding the Green Anoles they may be locally abundant now, but thanks to competition with the invasive Brown Anole they are on a rapid decline. As Brown Anoles continue to spread, the situation for Green Anoles may not look so good.

 

[Lafone]

So I know normally, new zoochatters (especially younger males, like myself) slowly but surely reveal their dream of starting a zoo; with a checklist of big game animals and exotic birds desired for display.
I have a more controversial one: to be a sourcer of live wildlife for reputable zoos and exotic pet breeders/suppliers. Traveling to exotic locations, hunting for wildlife, returning home with them alive, and getting paid for it or breeding them myself appeals to me. I may even start closer to home: capturing herptiles and fish in nearby states with a regulated system for commercial collecting. While having no experiencing working in zoos, I have worked at an exotic pet store in the past. Also, I have some experience hunting deer and herping.

Can a career be made currently collecting in this fashion? I have read books by authors that did (Peter Ryhiner, Marte Latham), but they were pre-CITES and Endangered Species Act. And what ethics besides the law should I consider?

I guess even if you want to be in a Willard Price book in real life most people here are zoo enthusiasts and few are going to be able to give practical employment advice on starting a business to sell wild animals to zoos. As mainly enthusiasts for well maintained collections which educate and support wild populations I also doubt anyone would want to.

If you just want an enthusiast opinion however I think it’s a romantic old fashioned notion that doesn’t suit modern times at all. However that’s by the by.

Linking back to your roadside zoo thread and illegal trading / poor welfare collecting (people who want things because they are rare not because they care) feeding that market might pay but it’s low on morals and if you were to do anything outside the law I hope you’d be caught in the end. No one should be feeding an illegal trade in animals in my opinion, for profit, for fun or whatever.

Feeding the exotic pet trade with wild caught animals is also a sad thing to advocate. I’m not even that keen on invasive species being caught for pet keeping - the reason they are out there is often careless keeping by individuals or companies passing them around so it’s just perpetuating a problem in my view.

There are lots of jobs in animal welfare or linked to it that are much better. I doubt any of them are the root to making a fortune.

 

[Aardwolf]

"I guess even if you want to be in a Willard Price book in real life most people here are zoo enthusiasts and few are going to be able to give practical employment advice on starting a business to sell wild animals to zoos. As mainly enthusiasts for well maintained collections which educate and support wild populations I also doubt anyone would want to."

To be honest, I wouldn't think that roadside zoos (if we're going to open that can of worms again) would be much of a market for a modern day Frank Buck or Gerald Durrell. Most of these facilities want to attract visitors and make a buck. They're going to keep to animals that people want to see and which are readily available in private hands, like tigers, alligators, kangaroos, and the more readily available monkeys, as well as the semi-exotics that lend themselves easily to feeding and interaction, like llamas, rheas, and fallow deer. Most of them aren't going to go out of their way to obtain rare, esoteric species from a dealer which will probably cost a lot and pose the risk of being a poor investment.

 

[Lafone]

"I guess even if you want to be in a Willard Price book in real life most people here are zoo enthusiasts and few are going to be able to give practical employment advice on starting a business to sell wild animals to zoos. As mainly enthusiasts for well maintained collections which educate and support wild populations I also doubt anyone would want to."

To be honest, I wouldn't think that roadside zoos (if we're going to open that can of worms again) would be much of a market for a modern day Frank Buck or Gerald Durrell. Most of these facilities want to attract visitors and make a buck. They're going to keep to animals that people want to see and which are readily available in private hands, like tigers, alligators, kangaroos, and the more readily available monkeys, as well as the semi-exotics that lend themselves easily to feeding and interaction, like llamas, rheas, and fallow deer. Most of them aren't going to go out of their way to obtain rare, esoteric species from a dealer which will probably cost a lot and pose the risk of being a poor investment.

Interesting thanks. At least that’s one positive at any rate. It is a bit mad to think of tigers being readily available though!

 

[Aardwolf]

Interesting thanks. At least that’s one positive at any rate.

I used to work in a pretty shoddy little zoo. Whenever I'd ask the owner about getting something a little more interesting, the reply was always something to the effect of "No one will no the difference between that and the stuff we already have, so why bother?"

I've always viewed it as a very positive attribute of modern zoos that they devote so much time and money to saving species than less than half a percent of their visitors have ever heard of our would care the slightest about.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Regarding the Green Anoles they may be locally abundant now, but thanks to competition with the invasive Brown Anole they are on a rapid decline. As Brown Anoles continue to spread, the situation for Green Anoles may not look so good.

I would like to captive breed green anoles myself for these reasons.
However, I have not been able to find captive bred green anoles to work with. Reptile breeders and hobbyists I've discussed this with don't find them economical to raise vs the supply of wild caught anoles.
Meaning that I will either have to a. purchase wild caught anoles, or b. legally collect green anoles.

 

[Nix]

Certainly, the idea of what is "ethical" and was is not, depends from person to person, culture to culture, or country to country. We can debate about this for pages on end with no conclusion.

The market for wild-caught animals will always be rather low in the US, Europe, or many other more Westernized countries. Because as said above it isn't considered ethical.

But in a place like Japan, China, Cuba, or even Russia, the market would be much larger as Wild-catching animals is not considered unethical by most there - zoos and the general public alike.

 

[Jurek7]

I would put aside the animal welfare / conservation issues.

A career of catching and trading wild animals is unlikely to give good and safe living, because the market is very shallow. It is also likely to shrink further in the future because the regulations became more and tougher. Also regulations related to veterinary, disease control etc.

It is also an unpredictable market - you can sometimes earn much, but are likely have long gaps with no business, fall into debt and go bankrupt. This is what e.g. Gerald Durrell found - he came with a financial backup of a wealthy family and loans from book publishers, but still was unable to make a living on trading wildlife.

Better specialize in something related, where the market is bigger. Something related to veterinary, environmental assessment, nature-based tourism etc. Even if one still dreams of this main interest, one will soon be forced to branch off to other occupations.

 

[Mickey]

Water buffalo dairy is a prized commodity in Italian cuisine.

Mind you we have our own breeds, we do not want to contaminate the gene pool by introducing animals of different lineage and you won't find farmers who will risk importing new breeds that might not sell as well without talking about bureocracy (not difficult papers, but the fact that any bereocrat will take his sweet time to consider your request let alone knowing about it!).

And having read all of the thread I can tell you I admire your stubbornness as it reminds my mindset in certain topics (some will know), I suggest you go work in a German or Czech zoo, specifically Berlin and Prague, as not only they stamp collect legally, but they have networks all over the world thus giving you an advantage; this being said, I also suggest you completely abandon the idea of capturing the animals for your own profit, and if you just want to pay the minimal bills and your food start working abroad as "capture team member" of some sorts I really don't know all the aspects and realities of the career, maybe you could start as a bounty hunter of invasive species, but do not think it'll be very profitable or profitable at all, perhaps you'd capture invasive animals only for yourself or small hobbist, but find yourself an "audience" before starting a plan.

 

[Batto]

I suggest you go work in a German or Czech zoo, specifically Berlin and Prague

Good luck getting a suitable job there...you might have a bit of an outdated, "romantic" idea of the current hiring practices of said zoos.

 

[Mickey]

Good luck getting a suitable job there...you might have a bit of an outdated, "romantic" idea of the current hiring practices of said zoos.

Oh absolutely, I have no idea how these two colosses hire people, but might as well encourage him in a more legal path rather than an illegal one

 

[Great Argus]

And having read all of the thread I can tell you I admire your stubbornness as it reminds my mindset in certain topics (some will know)

Stubbornness can be a useful trait, but it's also quite possible to stubbornly stick to something completely wrong and defend it against all comers.

 

[splendens]

You are not interested in captive breeding correct? But why? Since you are looking tocollect under represented species it would be beneficial to atleast breed some species such as inverts to get them more establsihed in the trade.

 

[La Cucaracha]

You are not interested in captive breeding correct? But why? Since you are looking tocollect under represented species it would be beneficial to atleast breed some species such as inverts to get them more establsihed in the trade.

There are some species I'm interested in captive breeding, but they would be from a foundation of wild caught animals anyways. Not necessarily underrepresented species or especially rare and exotic, but ones that aren't captive bred much.
To name a few: green anoles, northern leopard frogs; as far as inverts go, I'm interested in Arizona blond tarantulas.

While I personally don't have anything against a legal and regulated wildlife trade, green anoles and northern leopard frogs are facing competition from invasive species in their native range (brown anoles, American bullfrogs respectively).

Sustainability of tarantula collecting in the American southwest gives me some concern. There are no bag limits as far as I'm aware; neither do they receive the same level of sentiment or protection as more charismatic animals like reptiles, birds, and mammals or even fish.

Also my main criticisms of captive breeding exotic pets are a. in some cases such as the Brazilian aquarium fishery, it is done sustainably and provides livelihoods and incentives to protect wildlife and habitat b. most reptile and fish breeders are not itching to work with new species; they want to breed fancier morphs of already established species to sell for high market prices.

 

[Great Argus]

While I personally don't have anything against a legal and regulated wildlife trade, green anoles and northern leopard frogs are facing competition from invasive species in their native range (brown anoles, American bullfrogs respectively).

Northern Leopard Frog and American Bullfrog share a large swath of their native ranges across the northeastern US and Canada.

. most reptile and fish breeders are not itching to work with new species; they want to breed fancier morphs of already established species to sell for high market prices.

Half true - there are plenty of breeders out there working with lesser known or currently unsuccessfully bred species. Morphs are a big thing, but there's plenty of exploratory work being done as well. The marine hobby in particular is tackling breeding head on and there are frequent reports of new firsts coming out. There's also an increasingly skeptical eye being cast at some morphs such as bubble-eye goldfish, the various 'balloon' forms, scaleless snakes, and what have you.

 

[15399]

Half true - there are plenty of breeders out there working with lesser known or currently unsuccessfully bred species. Morphs are a big thing, but there's plenty of exploratory work being done as well. The marine hobby in particular is tackling breeding head on and there are frequent reports of new firsts coming out. There's also an increasingly skeptical eye being cast at some morphs such as bubble-eye goldfish, the various 'balloon' forms, scaleless snakes, and what have you.

Morphs is also bringing this thread in an entirely different direction, and an equally valid ethical question that could be addressed. While I think it's worthwhile to discuss the ethics of morphs, and I'd expect you'd find a lot of different views on this site (personally, I'm against selective breeding for specific phenotypes, color patterns, morphs, etc.), but think this would be a good topic for a different thread- not this one. I can completely understand, however, @La Cucaracha's frustration with the reptile hobby's obsession with morphs, as it's a frustration I share and wish would go away. There's so much incredible natural diversity out there, that it's a shame in my view that so many focus on creating an artificial diversity that oftentimes has negative implications on the animal's welfare.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Northern Leopard Frog and American Bullfrog share a large swath of their native ranges across the northeastern US and Canada.

They do share large swaths of native range, but not all of it. American bullfrogs aren't native to here in Colorado, and northern leopard frogs are considered an endangered species here as well.

Half true - there are plenty of breeders out there working with lesser known or currently unsuccessfully bred species. Morphs are a big thing, but there's plenty of exploratory work being done as well. The marine hobby in particular is tackling breeding head on and there are frequent reports of new firsts coming out. There's also an increasingly skeptical eye being cast at some morphs such as bubble-eye goldfish, the various 'balloon' forms, scaleless snakes, and what have you.

Do some private exotic breeders work with unusual species? Of course. Is it the majority? Not even close. What happened to "the big picture"?

 

[La Cucaracha]

Morphs is also bringing this thread in an entirely different direction, and an equally valid ethical question that could be addressed. While I think it's worthwhile to discuss the ethics of morphs, and I'd expect you'd find a lot of different views on this site (personally, I'm against selective breeding for specific phenotypes, color patterns, morphs, etc.), but think this would be a good topic for a different thread- not this one. I can completely understand, however, @La Cucaracha's frustration with the reptile hobby's obsession with morphs, as it's a frustration I share and wish would go away. There's so much incredible natural diversity out there, that it's a shame in my view that so many focus on creating an artificial diversity that oftentimes has negative implications on the animal's welfare.

Well, perhaps in the future I might make my tirade against morphs next.
I will just go for the record now and say I'm against spider ball python breeding because of the inherent neurological defects.

 

[splendens]

Well the invert hobby does not condemn wild capture for many species. I know of many collectors collecting unkept roaches, beetles and other under represented species such as harvestmen and start colonies and sell them. Are the U.S native tarantulas commonly bred?