Chester Zoo Is Elephant 'Birma' pregnant?

MARK said:
Would You UK guys rate the Chester zoos Asian elephant herd the best in the UK in terms of size and breeding?.
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Definately.

Because its got an interesting mix of different aged animals, from elderly matriarch(Sheba) down to young calves. Also, they have brought in elephants from non-breeding situations(Thi & Jangoli) to get them breeding. Jangoli was a particular success, being an older female from a traditional 'zoo' background- now she has had two calves successfully at Chester. Thi and her daughter Sithami(the very young mother) each have a calf of their own too aso are a related unit. And last year they saved 'Birma' 'from a solitary existence in a French Zoo. She has settled into the group very well and as you know, they are wondering if she is pregnant now.

Generally, its a very 'dynamic' group...
 
Do you think they will increase the herd size or maintain it at the present level?
 
Yassa said:
Often one zoo has 2 or even 3 births in a few months and then no calves for a couple of years. I think this happened in Chester in 2004, with Jangoli and Sithami giving birth within a few weeks and Thi having a stillbirth only 3 days apart from Sithami.
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Yes, I saw this phenomenum in Kaziranga Sanctuary- there were three riding elephants each with a tiny calf, all born within a few days of each other...

Regarding the size of Sundara- she could have been well grown for her age as I know she had two 'mothers'- Thi and Sithami, as Thi semi-adopted her after her own still birth-so Sundara had two sources of milk... I presume since Thi has a new calf that she's now relinquished her care of Sundara back to Sithami.
Incidentally, I noticed Thi is very stereotyped- stands in one place swinging her head for long periods...
 
if the plans of the new enclosure behind the elephants house go ahead, then the herd will almost certainly increase.

Sheba is on a very special diet. They chop all the food up for her. She'd be sorely missed.

I was told that Jangoli was the matriach. Maya is more solitary than the other elephants, and is more bothered about eating than anything else.
 
MARK said:
Do you think they will increase the herd size or maintain it at the present level?
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I think it will continue to grow some more. Young calves make a great show. Currently there are three breeding females(Jangoli, Thi and Sithami) and two non-breeders- Sheba, the eldest, and Maya. Sheba has become very thin and may not last much longer perhaps? The 6th female is the relatively new 'Birma' who is an unknown quantity yet.

The 3 calves are two males,Tunga and Raman (from Jangoli & THi) and one female Sundara(from Sithami, daughter of Thi) Thi originally came from ZSL incidentally.
They can keep Sundara as her father isn't the current bull Upali, but the previous 'Chang(her dad!) So she would be another future breeder(not too soon though...).

The new house is large enough to house more elephants I think but maybe they will only recruit numbers by breeding, from now on. I suppose if any more suitable breeding age females are offered they would take them. I also imagine they will move out young bulls as they grow, as they did with the previous two.
 
Writhedhornbill said:
I was told that Jangoli was the matriach. Maya is more solitary than the other elephants, and is more bothered about eating than anything else.
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When I was there, Sheba and Birma were alone together shut inside most of the day. I was told Birma is Sheba's 'new best friend' and a companion for her. I was surprised how thin Sheba now is. Her days must be numbered I think.

Interestingly, Jangoli stayed on her own outside, away from all the others and I never saw her go near them. Maya on the other hand was with Thi, Sithami and the calves. I'll agree that tall Jangoli does 'look' more like a matriarch than dumpy Maya

Only in the evening, when hay is put outside for them, did I see the whole group of females(including Sheba and Birma) altogether, feeding in a long line in the outside enclosure.
 
I hope the herd size will only increase through breeding from the existing females. Introducing adult female elephants into a close-knit family group is difficult at least, and too often fails. It ofen means a lot of stress for all herd members and if it fails and the herd must be divided in subgroups permanently, all elephants have to live with less space and it makes work for the keepers much more difficult. Chester had a lot of luck that all went so well with Birma, and I would not risk that again. As grantsmb said they have 3 breeding females + Sundara who will probably start breeding within mabe 5 -7 years, and if each of the 3 has one more female calf who can stay in the group, the herd size will increase quickly in the next years.
 
Yes, there's that aspect to consider too. They were lucky that 'Birma' settled so well. I think the older 'Maya' had been a 'troublemaker' at several zoos before coming to Chester. Only at Chester in the bigger group did she seem to settle okay.

But you're right- they probably have potentially enough breeders now not to need adding anymore animals from elsewhere.
 
grantsmb said:
Presumably when Sheba dies, 'Maya' as the next oldest(?), will be the new matriarch. Thi HI Way seems to show definite stereotyped behaviour, standing in one place for a long time and weaving her head back and forth.
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Thi as I understand it was one of the most nervous elephants from the 1980s-imported group at London, and the rumoured harsh treatment in training may have amplified this. I don't know if this is why she was moved from the group in the early 90s. Has her sterotyped behaviour worsened at Chester? What is her status like in the group?
 
Hadley said:
Thi as I understand it was one of the most nervous elephants from the 1980s-imported group at London, and the rumoured harsh treatment in training may have amplified this. I don't know if this is why she was moved from the group in the early 90s. Has her sterotyped behaviour worsened at Chester? What is her status like in the group?
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Thi was moved to Chester as the keepers at London couldn`t predict what she would do when they walked the Elephants round the zoo,the move was filmed by the BBC for the series called the ARK that was filmed during the troubled times of the early 90`s
 
Hadley said:
Thi as I understand it was one of the most nervous elephants from the 1980s-imported group at London, and the rumoured harsh treatment in training may have amplified this. I don't know if this is why she was moved from the group in the early 90s. Has her sterotyped behaviour worsened at Chester? What is her status like in the group?
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Thi was definately the most nervous ZSL elephant, and it WAS the reason she was moved to Chester. (So she was breeding long before any of the ZSL elephants.)

I would imagine her status is fairly high now as she was the first and most prolific breeder there in the current herd (Sheba had Motty years previously) and she currently has four younger relatives in the group.

I've never noticed her stereo-typed behaviour before but maybe I just overlooked it previously.

Hornbill- I don't think being born in a logging camp is necessarily the reason. (Twycross's females have a similar background). Possibly it started from her early experiences in the logging camp, or later at ZSL. She moves her feet back and forth as though still chained... At Whipsnade Azeeza(another ZSL elephant) also shows some stereotyped behaviour. The notice there does says its due to her early experience in a logging camp- but in both her and Thi's case, is that really true- or is it later life at ZSL, or some of both?. We'll never know.
 
Thi was originally obtained by Emmen Zoo in the Netherlands. But she did not come along with the other elephants there. Then she was sent to London Zoo and from there she came to Chester, which seems to have worked out very well for her. From an elephant who was dangerous for the keepers and had social problems and killed/rejected her first 2 calves to a female who is now rearing her offspring without problems and even has a granddaugther living with her is a great development.
 
I didn't know Thi came originally from Emmen Zoo. She has certainly had good fortune to end up at Chester. Its interesting how she rejected her first calves then suddenly became a model mother to Sithami. I guess it took her a long time to settle down fully? Another female at Chester- Maya- I think had several moves before her final home at Chester- I know she had been at Bristol zoo for just a very few months before arriving. Chester seems to be a happy place for previously sad elephants- Maya, Jangoli, Thi and now Birma....
 
She did not spend much time in Emmen, maybe a few months but not more. I read a very interesting article about her breeding history some time ago (can`t find it back now). After rejecting the first 2 calves (she killed the first and the second died after being removed for handraising) the keepers were sure she would never become a good mother and were ready to remove the 3rd calf for handraising too. She was seperated from the other elephants during the night and under constant observation. She showed no signs of labor the day Sithami was born and was released into the herd and she suddenly started pressing and gave birth to Sithami within a few minutes. I am not sure if the birth happened indoors or outdoors. The article described that Thi was very nervous after the birth but that Sheba helped her and cared for the baby and that it was probably her support and calming influence that changed Thi`s behavoir towards her calves. Thi was no super mother for Sithami and Sithami spent a lot of time with Sheba but Thi nursed her and her maternal care became better. When Thi had the next birth in 2000 (a bull calf - either Assam or Po Chin) everything went well. I think since Sithami`s birth all births in Chester happened within the herd, expecting females are no longer seperated. And it seems that was the key to sucess!
 
Yes, I'm pretty sure I read the same article...

I believe Thi killed her first calf by throwing it against the wall...
(possibly hearing about that was why Twycross chained their two females Tonzi and Minbu during the births of their calves...though both were in fact good mothers)

Thi's 2nd one, Karha(female) was handraised and was doing okay until she swallowed a stone which I think was choking her, and she died while being operated on for its removal. I'm certain the marked change
in Thi's attitude with the third calf(assam) was due to (accidentally) giving birth in the group and having support from Sheba made her calmer.As this was the first calf to stay with her, it was the equivalent of her being a first time mother, so she needed help until she became competent.
After the later stillbirth, she partially adopted Sithami's newborn calf(Sundara)- the headkeeper told me they split the care about 60/40 (Thi being in charge..) Sithami was obviously learning from Thi - just as Thi had done previously from Sheba. So Thi has had three successful calves of her own, and helped rear her granddaughter too.
 
It just goes to show what the problems are with establishing breeding herds from elephantc cows which have not grown up in maternal groups and have systematically been trained for protected contact/ public displays in their early years. As Asian elephant pregnancies became more common in the UK at the end of the 90s, it is interesting to note the practices employed by justifiably nervous elephant teams, as has been mentioned with Twycross, where the cow is virtually immobilised by a series of ropes or chains in order to prevent kicking as soon as the calf is born. Maybe we will see less and less of this as the next few years render most of this last wave of imported (semi) wild-born cows either post-reproductive or experienced mothers now able to care for young, based on shared experience within each zoo herd.

For this reason, I really hope Woburn do not import any young animals from Asia....I can't see how they would given the adverse publicity it would create. Dublin are a really good example of how to build a new unit of well-socialised elephants from scratch.
 
There are many parallels between Elephants and Gorillas. The same problems in establishing family groups. The same problems of desocialised infants. The same issues of females (usually) having to learn how to care for first infants. The same problems of finding homes for surplus males.

I think in Twycross's case the lack of any 'family' for their pregnant elephants made them very nervous of the outcome at the time of the births- despite that they were very lucky to have two good mothers. Now they HAVE got a family group, but without a bull, there's no immediate prospect of breeding any more calves. Ridiculous...

I agree that importing miserable confused young 'orphans' is no longer the way forward. As Elephant groups breed in Europe, hopefully 'splinter' groups can be formed with mothers and their calves being used to form new families in other zoos. Dublin being a perfect example. It would be good if Woburn obtain any additional animals in the same way, rather than importing any more from the countries of origin.
 
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