Is this orangutan Sumatran?

[Pertinax]

That's really interesting. Which other orangutans do you think look like possible hybrids? I honestly thought testing would've been done more often to ensure they're of the right species, especially for orangutans born in the 70s-80s.

One is Benjamin, still at Dudley Zoo in the UK. He was born at Duisburg Zoo in Germany and at the time they had both species though I don't know how close together they were. Other people insist he's just a light-coloured Bornean but his coat does look Sumatran in both colour and the more fleecy texture.

The Centre for Great Apes is a rescue centre in the USA who definately have a number of hybrid Orangutans of both sexes, as well as some purebreds too. These mostly came from other zoos, probably sent there after realising they'd mistakenly crossed the species. Its interesting to identify which are which from their photos.

 

[tapanuliensis]

One is Benjamin, still at Dudley Zoo in the UK. He was born at Duisburg Zoo in Germany and at the time they had both species though I don't know how close together they were. Other people insist he's just a light-coloured Bornean but his coat does look Sumatran in both colour and the more fleecy texture.

The Centre for Great Apes is a rescue centre in the USA who definately have a number of hybrid Orangutans of both sexes, as well as some purebreds too. These mostly came from other zoos, probably sent there after realising they'd mistakenly crossed the species. Its interesting to identify which are which from their photos.

Most of the CFGA orangutans were rescued from either the entertainment industry, or from other zoos but I believe they were known to be hybrids. Most of the males at the sanctuary have the same father, who was a hybrid himself, and many of his offspring seem to have been used in entertainment if I recall correctly.

I see what you mean about Benjamin. I think it depends on the lighting in the pictures- in some he looks like a normal Bornean, and in this image his hair is lighter than most Sumatrans. Although I guess seeing him in real life would be the only way to get an accurate view of his colour.

 

[Pertinax]

Most of the CFGA orangutans were rescued from either the entertainment industry, or from other zoos but I believe they were known to be hybrids. Most of the males at the sanctuary have the same father, who was a hybrid himself, and many of his offspring seem to have been used in entertainment if I recall correctly.

I see what you mean about Benjamin. I think it depends on the lighting in the pictures- in some he looks like a normal Bornean, and in this image his hair is lighter than most Sumatrans. Although I guess seeing him in real life would be the only way to get an accurate view of his colour.

Yes I did know the CFGA orangs were already known to be mostly hybrids. Apart from Benjamin there have been one or two others in the past I've been dubious about but I can't remember where now.

Benjamin's cheek pads are also quite hairy like a Sumatran, Bornean male cheekpads have those tiny 'goosebumps' but are always(?) bare-skinned.

 

[Sphenisciologist]

I guess you haven't seen a live Eastern Gorilla then. They quite clearly differ from the Western (lowland) Gorilla you're used to see in zoos.

I am not the greatest at telling mammals apart. Not my cup of tea. Lol.

 

[tapanuliensis]

Yes I did know the CFGA orangs were already known to be mostly hybrids. Apart from Benjamin there have been one or two others in the past I've been dubious about but I can't remember where now.

Benjamin's cheek pads are also quite hairy like a Sumatran, Bornean male cheekpads have those tiny 'goosebumps' but are always(?) bare-skinned.

Some Bornean males do have hair on their flanges, but they’re thinner and orange in colour instead of white. It’s not as noticeable as it is in Sumatrans, but I think this image shows it.
It might even be a subspecies thing, I’m not too sure, but I assume most of the Borneans in zoos nowadays are hybrids of their three (morio, pygmaeus, wurmbii) subspecies. Some Sumatran males have less noticeable face hairs which gives them a slightly more Bornean look (puluh at chester zoo for example) so I guess it just varies between individuals like most other characteristics.

 

[Batto]

I am not the greatest at telling mammals apart. Not my cup of tea. Lol.

Then why did you add your two cents to a thread solely dedicated to great apes? Which happen to be mammals...

 

[Sphenisciologist]

Then why did you add your two cents to a thread solely dedicated great apes? Which happen to be mammals...

I didn’t think it was going to be that big of a deal…

 

[amur leopard]

Based on the wider face and longer body hair, I’m assuming Sumatran but I too am not %100 sure.

Then why did you add your two cents to a thread solely dedicated great apes? Which happen to be mammals...

Particularly since you indicated it was Sumatran despite Borneans having the 'wider face' you cited as a Sumatran characteristic...

It's not a big deal @Sphenisciologist, but in future I wouldn't necessarily be so quick to wade into a conversation on a subject of which you, admittedly, know little - and if you do, don't be surprised when people who know more than you on the subject correct you. Not a big deal as I said, as I've done similar things many times in the past, just make sure you've got your facts straight when you do so.

 

[Sphenisciologist]

Particularly since you indicated it was Sumatran despite Borneans having the 'wider face' you cited as a Sumatran characteristic...

It's not a big deal @Sphenisciologist, but in future I wouldn't necessarily be so quick to wade into a conversation on a subject of which you, admittedly, know little - and if you do, don't be surprised when people who know more than you on the subject correct you. Not a big deal as I said, as I've done similar things many times in the past, just make sure you've got your facts straight when you do so.

Damn .

 

[Jurek7]

Xt=yaia, you may consider contacting Gladys Porter zoo and the AZA orangutan coordinator. They may be interested and decide to act. Genetic testing would be a sure way to solve doubts of Dodie's ancestry.

As Pertinax said, studbooks generally copy information sent by zoos, and zoos believe traders, and this repeatedly turned incorrect. From my memory, studboooks of Yellow-breasted Capuchins, Asian Lions, Siberian Tigers and Amur Leopards were seriously damaged in the past, because some founders turned to be other subspecies after genetic testing.

I agree that there may be more unrecognized hybrid orangutans. I suppose much information in orangutan studbooks came from the time before it was discovered that they can mate through the mesh, and was never double checked.

Fine-grained understanding of orangutan diversity is another topic. Tapanuli Orangutan is recently separated and is said to be the rarest great ape. Nobody yet checked whether any Tapanuli Orangutans reached zoos historically or even are present today. It is only logical that orangutan studbook keepers should try to determine subspecies of Bornean orangutans (morio, pygmaeus or wurmbii) and try to separate bloodlines. In comparison, chimpanzee studbook differentiates between subspecies and especially Western chimps are bred separately. I recall that most orangutans were imported to zoos from only one part of Borneo. Likely, many or majority of Bornean orangutans in zoos are of pure population, despite several decades of free crossing.

 

[tapanuliensis]

Xt=yaia, you may consider contacting Gladys Porter zoo and the AZA orangutan coordinator. They may be interested and decide to act. Genetic testing would be a sure way to solve doubts of Dodie's ancestry.

As Pertinax said, studbooks generally copy information sent by zoos, and zoos believe traders, and this repeatedly turned incorrect. From my memory, studboooks of Yellow-breasted Capuchins, Asian Lions, Siberian Tigers and Amur Leopards were seriously damaged in the past, because some founders turned to be other subspecies after genetic testing.

I agree that there may be more unrecognized hybrid orangutans. I suppose much information in orangutan studbooks came from the time before it was discovered that they can mate through the mesh, and was never double checked.

Fine-grained understanding of orangutan diversity is another topic. Tapanuli Orangutan is recently separated and is said to be the rarest great ape. Nobody yet checked whether any Tapanuli Orangutans reached zoos historically or even are present today. It is only logical that orangutan studbook keepers should try to determine subspecies of Bornean orangutans (morio, pygmaeus or wurmbii) and try to separate bloodlines. In comparison, chimpanzee studbook differentiates between subspecies and especially Western chimps are bred separately. I recall that most orangutans were imported to zoos from only one part of Borneo. Likely, many or majority of Bornean orangutans in zoos are of pure population, despite several decades of free crossing.

I’ll try contacting the zoo. Also, it’s interesting that the majority of Borneans in zoos may be of pure population. I wonder if it would be worth zoos trying to manage them separately, but I can’t imagine it being easy. I also hear that there's uncertainty around pp.morio being one subspecies, and there might be a potential fourth, so there's still more to figure out.
I’ve also been thinking about the Tapanuli Orangutan. It’s very likely they may have been imported to zoos as I’m sure their population wasn’t completely unknown, especially to those living in the region, and their population would’ve been much larger. It’s pretty much impossible to differentiate them from Sumatrans physically, and there aren’t many reference images (I probably have images of 5 Tapanuli males and 6-7 females max). If there are still pure Tapanuli orangutans in zoos, it would probably be smart to try and create and preserve a captive population as it doesn’t look like they’re doing too well in the wild.

 

[Pertinax]

I’ve also been thinking about the Tapanuli Orangutan. It’s very likely they may have been imported to zoos as I’m sure their population wasn’t completely unknown, especially to those living in the region, and their population would’ve been much larger. It’s pretty much impossible to differentiate them from Sumatrans physically, and there aren’t many reference images (I probably have images of 5 Tapanuli males and 6-7 females max). If there are still pure Tapanuli orangutans in zoos, it would probably be smart to try and create and preserve a captive population as it doesn’t look like they’re doing too well in the wild.

I find it difficult to accept the Tapanuli ones as a seperate full species. So like any other Sumtrans in my opinion- just an isolated population?

 

[tapanuliensis]

I find it difficult to accept the Tapanuli ones as a seperate full species. So like any other Sumtrans in my opinion- just an isolated population?

Only physically. Genetically, they’re said to be closer to the Borneans, and are the ancestors of both the Sumatran and Bornean orangutans. I think it’s pretty important to separate them.