Like you have said, wait till the investigation has been completed and any court proceedings if any, have been completed.
It's a word of warning, that's all, as a moderator, i'm looking out for this site and its members.
Twycross Zoo It gets worse.........
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Like you have said, wait till the investigation has been completed and any court proceedings if any, have been completed.
It's a word of warning, that's all, as a moderator, i'm looking out for this site and its members.
Its not dissimilar from the case of Annie the rescued circus elephant that went to Longleat. It is always safer (for the good of the site) to withold discussion on here of the perceived wrongs and rights of individuals involved in these cases while they are pending.
I would not jump to conclusions here prematurely. I would also appreciate if yo and sundry do not act the judge, jury and executioner and under pretext put the (ex-) keepers on water and bread an throw away the key dizzy dozy.
I am not saying I know or do not know what transpired just the keepers in question seem to have been charged, yet not found guilty or any of the like.
Further, I would not put much credence on the Sun newspaper nor Twycross Zoo management for political correctness in this matter.
If the (ex-) keepers in question at any stage would be found guilty of animal welfare neglect at least the TMT would bear some and inherent responsibility for that. But as we all know it is usually the lower ranks that get hit, and some times unfairly so.
Finally, what remains curious to me in this case is that the keepers have already been sacked, before anything has been proven in a court of law ... It - for tribunal due diligence - be correct to only suspend them from duty at this stage I believe.
I am not saying I know or do not know what transpired just the keepers in question seem to have been charged, yet not found guilty or any of the like.
Further, I would not put much credence on the Sun newspaper nor Twycross Zoo management for political correctness in this matter.
If the (ex-) keepers in question at any stage would be found guilty of animal welfare neglect at least the TMT would bear some and inherent responsibility for that. But as we all know it is usually the lower ranks that get hit, and some times unfairly so.
Finally, what remains curious to me in this case is that the keepers have already been sacked, before anything has been proven in a court of law ... It - for tribunal due diligence - be correct to only suspend them from duty at this stage I believe.
DanKoehl
Well-Known Member
Reading all comments from people who appearently have no experience from direct contact with elephants, I must reply.
Do not believe everything what is said from Twycross. Theres a new generation of animal interested people, who wants to work elephants, but cant handle free contact and becoming specialists, real elephant trainers. Instead of accepting this, they get frustrated and act like Animal Rights People and stab collegues in the back, just in order to change the working situation to their favour, and transfer elephants into protected contact, so they can work the elephants in PC. For every year, a lot of experienced FC elephant keepers are removed from their work, because of various intrigues, sometimes with lifelong experience. Why? Every dog owner is aloud to have their dog by a line, every horse owner and rider are aloud to use a bridle, and those tools are in physical contact with the animals more seconds during only one day, than a free contact elephant trainer touches an elephant in their hole life. Free contact keepers are using tools or giudes like elephant hooks, but look where they are, in 99,99,99% of the time, NOT in contact with the elephants. And remember one thing, we still follow the laws, that someone is guilty only after trail, not before! We still have not returned to the old days in Wild West when Lynch mob hanged accused people. The old crew in Twycross were known to be very dedicated, and commited to their job, and their elephants. Elephant mangement in Europe has taken yet another step into romantic philosophy and unexperienced people arguing they know better. Those elephant could still be in free contact today. They are not because they were constantly abused, but because of intrigues, and pressure of Animal Rights Activists.
Do not believe everything what is said from Twycross. Theres a new generation of animal interested people, who wants to work elephants, but cant handle free contact and becoming specialists, real elephant trainers. Instead of accepting this, they get frustrated and act like Animal Rights People and stab collegues in the back, just in order to change the working situation to their favour, and transfer elephants into protected contact, so they can work the elephants in PC. For every year, a lot of experienced FC elephant keepers are removed from their work, because of various intrigues, sometimes with lifelong experience. Why? Every dog owner is aloud to have their dog by a line, every horse owner and rider are aloud to use a bridle, and those tools are in physical contact with the animals more seconds during only one day, than a free contact elephant trainer touches an elephant in their hole life. Free contact keepers are using tools or giudes like elephant hooks, but look where they are, in 99,99,99% of the time, NOT in contact with the elephants. And remember one thing, we still follow the laws, that someone is guilty only after trail, not before! We still have not returned to the old days in Wild West when Lynch mob hanged accused people. The old crew in Twycross were known to be very dedicated, and commited to their job, and their elephants. Elephant mangement in Europe has taken yet another step into romantic philosophy and unexperienced people arguing they know better. Those elephant could still be in free contact today. They are not because they were constantly abused, but because of intrigues, and pressure of Animal Rights Activists.
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
As is stated above, the information, thus far, comes from the Twycross Management, and The Sun newspaper.
And, at risk of sounding like an apologist for those who mistreat animals, wouldn't you need to wack an elephant pretty hard for it to have any impact on the animal?
I do wonder what is the worst crime against animal-kind: hitting a pachyderm with a stick (if that is indeed what it was), or keeping gorillas and chimps in patently substandard conditions?
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DanKoehl
Well-Known Member
Good question, since they have herpes in the herd, and sever cases og foot abcesesses, which need a lot of medical attention, one can really question if this decision was for the best of the animals, or to satisfy people.
Im not sure any herpes calf has been saved in PC.
Ganesh Vijay was, as far as I can understand, euthanised because of EEHV, Elephant endotheliotropic herpes virus.
Fatal elephant endotheliotropic herpesvirus type 5 infection in a captive Asian elephant -- Denk et al. 171 (15): 380 -- Veterinary Record
Kifaru Bwana posted
[Finally, what remains curious to me in this case is that the keepers have already been sacked, before anything has been proven in a court of law ... It - for tribunal due diligence - be correct to only suspend them from duty at this stage I believe.[/QUOTE]
The Problem is to me one of perception the zoo has been seen to act hard and fast on the allegations and perpetrators of the alleged abuse so the zoo visitors will be assured that all is well and nothing untoward is tolerated.
It's not just in zoos I'm afraid it is nation wide now, the perception of the organisation in the public eye comes first the facts are secondary.
Dean
[Finally, what remains curious to me in this case is that the keepers have already been sacked, before anything has been proven in a court of law ... It - for tribunal due diligence - be correct to only suspend them from duty at this stage I believe.[/QUOTE]
The Problem is to me one of perception the zoo has been seen to act hard and fast on the allegations and perpetrators of the alleged abuse so the zoo visitors will be assured that all is well and nothing untoward is tolerated.
It's not just in zoos I'm afraid it is nation wide now, the perception of the organisation in the public eye comes first the facts are secondary.
Dean
Nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of this particular case, but I personally have always felt Twycross should never have started keeping Elephants all those years ago, which then led to the acquisition of the existing females and the continued problems of breeding from a male-less group. I just don't think it is really a suitable zoo to have breeding-age elephants under those circumstances.
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The zoo does not need a criminal conviction to sack employees-they just need to be very confident there has been a serious breach of contract. Sacked employees who feel their dismissal was unfair can then take it to tribunal where the zoo will have to provide evidence of the breach and argue that it was severe enough to warrant immediate dismissal.
When did Twycross begin keeping elephants? I assume it was at a time when very few zoos in theUK had their elephants in breeding situations anyway, so future problems couldn't have been foreseen really when they orinally started keeping them.
Twycross obtained their first baby elephant in the sixties, not long after they opened, Iris, they had a young African for a time as a companion for Asian Iris, who was later sent to a Safari park, another Asian was later acquired who was also later sent to another collection,
BIAZA have endorsed Twycross's action following their statement.
Twycross Zoo praised for swift action after three staff accused of abusing elephants | This is Leicestershire
Twycross Zoo praised for swift action after three staff accused of abusing elephants | This is Leicestershire
Thanks, that confirmed what i suspected as far as i am eaware, there were hardly any breeding groups in zoos in the UK into the 90s, only ones i can think of are Chester and the Aspinall parks (maybe a safari park or 2 also) whilst the other zoos would have been in double figures even in 1990. So i don't see that Twycross could be blamed for taking elephants originally in the 60s!
No, at this time the public would have expected to see at least one elephant in a zoo of any importance, it was the same with the circus, small shows would have one or two, and large shows such as Billy Smart would have fifteen!, which were a great draw on a Sunday afternoon when they paraded them from the railway station,they travelled by train, I agree that as far as zoos were concerned at this time, breeding them never came into it, bulls were hardly ever kept, in fact several zoos kept both Asian and African together, I would think Paignton was the last zoo in the U.K. to do this.
You are correct that in those days many collections kept female Elephants in non-breeding situations as breeding was hardly considered possible in smaller zoos where a bull couldn't be kept. So I don't actually blame them for getting elephants originally though I think for what was then a comparatively small, chiefly Primate-orientated collection it might have been a wiser choice if they hadn't- the aforementioned female 'Iris' killed a keeper and the accomodation, since converted for the Bonobos, was typically of the time.
I believe where they went wrong was in replacing them with the current ones, given they didn't want a bull and have never been prepared to keep one. Sending them to Chester for mating was successful and resulted in the two female calves being born, but Molly B's attitude after that was 'we've bred them once, why bother again?' which is not exactly a very committed attitude to elephant conservation or forming a proper social group. Elephants are always going to be a difficult species to manage and there other less 'difficult' and popular missing species a medium-sized zoo like that could have added instead- what about Zebras, Pygmy Hippos or even the relatively placid White Rhino? Not quite the draw of Elephants maybe, but safer in the long run?