Javan Rhinoceros in zoos

[ThylacineAlive]

I wanted to know what you guys think of Javan Rhinos being taken from the wild and brought into captivity. Now, unlike my other threads, I will not post my opinions until after I hear what you guys have to say. Also, I'm interesting in what you guys think about the posiblity of Javan Rhinos (and Sumatran Rhinos) still surviving in the dense and rarely explored jungles of Myanmar (Burma). Also, do you guys think it's remotely possible for one or two (more mabye more) Javan Rhinos to have survived in captivity under Indian Rhinos and are being kept in zoos in countries that don't have DNA testing on the animals?

 

[Pacarana]

I wanted to know what you guys think of Javan Rhinos being taken from the wild and brought into captivity.

I do not believe in importation of a wild animal unless it's for conservational progress. In this case, it would be. Ideally we all want these rhinos in zoos but the pure fact about it is, Javan Rhinos are on the brink of extinction. If we pull them out of their carefully balanced ecosystem, they will more than likely die. Javan's are very sensitive species. The only time an organization would think about rounding them all up and sending them to different zoos across the country is if there was a recent environmental hazard, storm or fire, or industrial hazard. I will use another herp to demonstrate my opinion. The Kihansi spray toad, now re-introduced back into their natural home, was once extinct in the wild because of over collecting. Ironically this over collecting was what saved them from the dam that was built on their perfectly balanced ecosystem. At first the organizations had a difficult time keeping the toad alive but eventually got down a system and started to breed the little dudes like crazy. This would be a last case scenario, which it was to the collectors. Only then would we think about taking an animal from the wild, if there was immediate danger.

 

[elefante]

How would this be different from taking the California condor from the wild in the late 80s? They have been able to breed them in captivity and have released quite a few in the wild.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I do not believe in importation of a wild animal unless it's for conservational progress. In this case, it would be. Ideally we all want these rhinos in zoos but the pure fact about it is, Javan Rhinos are on the brink of extinction. If we pull them out of their carefully balanced ecosystem, they will more than likely die. Javan's are very sensitive species. The only time an organization would think about rounding them all up and sending them to different zoos across the country is if there was a recent environmental hazard, storm or fire, or industrial hazard. I will use another herp to demonstrate my opinion. The Kihansi spray toad, now re-introduced back into their natural home, was once extinct in the wild because of over collecting. Ironically this over collecting was what saved them from the dam that was built on their perfectly balanced ecosystem. At first the organizations had a difficult time keeping the toad alive but eventually got down a system and started to breed the little dudes like crazy. This would be a last case scenario, which it was to the collectors. Only then would we think about taking an animal from the wild, if there was immediate danger.

I would suggest taking older adults that are no longer contributing to the breeding population into captivity to see how the species adapts in modern zoological parks. The Kihansi Spray Toad did not go extinct in the wild because of over collection, they went extinct in the wild because of a dam as you mentioned and that's why they were brought into captivity. I did not realize that they had been reintroduced. I think only a few, non-contributing individuals should be brought into captivity first and, if they do good, one or two breeding pairs should be brought in and then the population can expand, grow, and be reintroduced. Of course, that's easier said then done.

 

[DavidBrown]

The challenge with Javan rhinos is that they are in very dense forest and nobody even knows how many there are. Going in to capture some would likely result in some injury and mortality as it did with the initial Sumatran rhino program 20 years ago.

There have been a handful of Sumatran rhinos born from that program, but could it be called a real success at any level? I would argue not really. The LA Zoo won't even put the Sumatran rhino on exhibit to raise conservation awareness for the species. What is the point of having him there at all? I don't see that the money and time focused on trying to set up a Sumatran rhino "assurance population" has been worthwhile at all in terms of meaningful scientific results or public awareness. There is no captive Sumatran rhino assurance population. There is now one baby rhino in captivity in Sumatra, 2 individuals at the Cincy Zoo which may or may not be raising at least a little conservation awareness and funding for the species, and an off-exhibit rhino at LA. This is the result of millions of dollars and decades of effort.

The only way the Javan rhino has any fighting chance is to safe guard their habitat as much as humanly possible and build a meaningful public constituency in Indonesia for their conservation. If the Indonesians don't care about saving their rhinos then there is no hope for the species, ditto the Sumatran rhino.

 

[BeardsleyZooFan]

Well said DavidBrown!

 

[Hix]

How would this be different from taking the California condor from the wild in the late 80s? They have been able to breed them in captivity and have released quite a few in the wild.

The condors were all brought into captivity because they were not going to survive in the wild. The few chicks hatched in the wild were not surviving, and adults were dying from lead poisoning (and the occasional shooting).

There were only 22, and to keep the species alive they needed the greatest amount of genetic diversity available - and it wasn't safe to leave individuals in the wild.

The difference between the condors in captivity and the rhinos is that zoos knew how to keep and breed Andean Condors successfully prior to collecting the Californians. As David mentioned above, the history with Sumatran rhinos in captivity shows no such expertise. ion my opinion, taking Javans from the wild now has the potential to do more harm than good. And that harm could be irreparable.



Hix

 

[DavidBrown]

The condors were all brought into captivity because they were not going to survive in the wild. The few chicks hatched in the wild were not surviving, and adults were dying from lead poisoning (and the occasional shooting).

There were only 22, and to keep the species alive they needed the greatest amount of genetic diversity available - and it wasn't safe to leave individuals in the wild.

The difference between the condors in captivity and the rhinos is that zoos knew how to keep and breed Andean Condors successfully prior to collecting the Californians. As David mentioned above, the history with Sumatran rhinos in captivity shows no such expertise. ion my opinion, taking Javans from the wild now has the potential to do more harm than good. And that harm could be irreparable.



Hix

Another difference is that the condors were captured and held within their native range with the explicit goal of increasing their numbers and returning them to the wild. The goal of the Sumatran rhino program was to export a bunch of them to the U.S. and Europe primarily for exhibition purposes and creating a zoo population that would almost certainly never be returned to the wild.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

The challenge with Javan rhinos is that they are in very dense forest and nobody even knows how many there are. Going in to capture some would likely result in some injury and mortality as it did with the initial Sumatran rhino program 20 years ago.

There have been a handful of Sumatran rhinos born from that program, but could it be called a real success at any level? I would argue not really. The LA Zoo won't even put the Sumatran rhino on exhibit to raise conservation awareness for the species. What is the point of having him there at all? I don't see that the money and time focused on trying to set up a Sumatran rhino "assurance population" has been worthwhile at all in terms of meaningful scientific results or public awareness. There is no captive Sumatran rhino assurance population. There is now one baby rhino in captivity in Sumatra, 2 individuals at the Cincy Zoo which may or may not be raising at least a little conservation awareness and funding for the species, and an off-exhibit rhino at LA. This is the result of millions of dollars and decades of effort.

The only way the Javan rhino has any fighting chance is to safe guard their habitat as much as humanly possible and build a meaningful public constituency in Indonesia for their conservation. If the Indonesians don't care about saving their rhinos then there is no hope for the species, ditto the Sumatran rhino.

Well said. I think the best thing we can do for the species is safe gaurd their remaining habitat and protect them so that they can breed in the wild and, one day, start to spread outside of the protected forest. One that happens, and the population has begun to rise over at least 100 individuals, then we should take one or two into captivity to see how they do. First, we need to continue our captive breeding program for Sumatran Rhinos since we've already gotten our selves involved there and, while yes we don't have many results to show for our work, we certainly are much farther then we were 11 years ago and we do have reults.

Now, do you guys think it's remotely possible for Javan (and Sumatran) Rhinos to have survived on the mainland in Myanmar (Burma) as suspected by some scientists.

 

[DavidBrown]

Now, do you guys think it's remotely possible for Javan (and Sumatran) Rhinos to have survived on the mainland in Myanmar (Burma) as suspected by some scientists.

Animals frequently pop up in their "former" ranges (for examples all of the articles that SurroundX posts in the conservation forum about rediscovered "extinct" species), so it seems possible that they could persist in Burma.

 

[Pertinax]

If they did, lets hope its not a tiny isolated pocket like the Javan Rhinos in Cat Nian(?) in Vietnam-probably now extinct, only a few years after they were rediscovered.

For the record, its my belief that IF( its a big 'if') Javan Rhinos were ever brought into captivity(I am not saying they should be) they might prove far easier to maintain and breed than the Sumatran Rhino, since they are very closely related to the Great Indian Rhino which does very well in captivity nowadays. Its likely there could be few/none of the problems associated with Diet and Ovulation/Breeding which were experienced with Sumatran Rhinos. That experiment in captive breeding was really a huge failure if its judged by the number of animals taken into captivity against the number successfully born and raised....

 

[ThylacineAlive]

For the record, its my belief that IF( its a big 'if') Javan Rhinos were ever brought into captivity(I am not saying they should be) they might prove far easier to maintain and breed than the Sumatran Rhino, since they are very closely related to the Great Indian Rhino which does very well in captivity nowadays. Its likely there could be few/none of the problems associated with Diet and Ovulation/Breeding which were experienced with Sumatran Rhinos.

I was about to post that
This leads into my next question. Do you think it is even remotely possible that, in a very small zoo in a more poor country that doesn't do DNA testing on their animals, one or two (mabye more) Javan Rhinos have managed to survive in captivity and not been noticed? If not, how about hybrid Indian x Javan Rhinos?

 

[elefante]

Well said. I think the best thing we can do for the species is safe gaurd their remaining habitat and protect them so that they can breed in the wild and, one day, start to spread outside of the protected forest. One that happens, and the population has begun to rise over at least 100 individuals, then we should take one or two into captivity to see how they do. First, we need to continue our captive breeding program for Sumatran Rhinos since we've already gotten our selves involved there and, while yes we don't have many results to show for our work, we certainly are much farther then we were 11 years ago and we do have reults.

Now, do you guys think it's remotely possible for Javan (and Sumatran) Rhinos to have survived on the mainland in Myanmar (Burma) as suspected by some scientists.

It is possible that some could have survived in Myanmar. That area is so closed off to outsiders it's hard to tell. I've read that there has been evidence that the pink-headed duck may be living in Myanmar after having been presumed extinct since the 1930s.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

It is possible that some could have survived in Myanmar. That area is so closed off to outsiders it's hard to tell. I've read that there has been evidence that the pink-headed duck may be living in Myanmar after having been presumed extinct since the 1930s.

Yes that is why I asked. The Burmese government has done a very nice job of keeping their forests cut off from the rest of the world and, as a result, it has become the last hidding place for some very endangered species. Some of which are suppose to be Extinct (Pink-Headed Duck, Indian Javan Rhino (R. s. inermis), Northern Sumatran Rhino (D. s. lasiotis)). Myanmar has proven it can hide many a creature (like the newly discovered Myanmar Snub-Nosed Monkey) in its forets. Unfortunetly, these forests are now being destroyed. Many Cryptids are, in fact, animals thought to be Extinct (Steller Sea Cow, Honshu Wolf, Thylacine).

 

[elefante]

Yes that is why I asked. The Burmese government has done a very nice job of keeping their forests cut off from the rest of the world and, as a result, it has become the last hidding place for some very endangered species. Some of which are suppose to be Extinct (Pink-Headed Duck, Indian Javan Rhino (R. s. inermis), Northern Sumatran Rhino (D. s. lasiotis)). Myanmar has proven it can hide many a creature (like the newly discovered Myanmar Snub-Nosed Monkey) in its forets. Unfortunetly, these forests are now being destroyed. Many Cryptids are, in fact, animals thought to be Extinct (Steller Sea Cow, Honshu Wolf, Thylacine).

It really is too bad Westerners can't get into Burma to study some more. That would be neat if some of these species could be found to be still surviving there. You mentioned the Steller's Sea Cow and Honshu Wolf, have there been reported sightings of those animals? I have heard about sightings of Thylacines and seen supposed video evidence of them.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

It really is too bad Westerners can't get into Burma to study some more. That would be neat if some of these species could be found to be still surviving there. You mentioned the Steller's Sea Cow and Honshu Wolf, have there been reported sightings of those animals? I have heard about sightings of Thylacines and seen supposed video evidence of them.

I'm not too familiar to the stories of the sightings. I just know that people report them. People also say seeing Caspians Tigers and Megalania (obviously, there are may others, some of which, have been Extinct for thousands, even millions, of years. Like dinosaur old).

Again, do you think it is even remotely possible that, in a very small zoo in a more poor country that doesn't do DNA testing on their animals, one or two (mabye more) Javan Rhinos have managed to survive in captivity and not been noticed? If not, how about hybrid Indian x Javan Rhinos?

 

[DavidBrown]

Again, do you think it is even remotely possible that, in a very small zoo in a more poor country that doesn't do DNA testing on their animals, one or two (mabye more) Javan Rhinos have managed to survive in captivity and not been noticed? If not, how about hybrid Indian x Javan Rhinos?

Given how few Indian rhinos there are and how disjunct their distribution from Javan rhinos is, I do not think this is possible. It seems likely that these species have been separated for millions of years and would not hybridize.

 

[elefante]

I'm not too familiar to the stories of the sightings. I just know that people report them. People also say seeing Caspians Tigers and Megalania (obviously, there are may others, some of which, have been Extinct for thousands, even millions, of years. Like dinosaur old).

Again, do you think it is even remotely possible that, in a very small zoo in a more poor country that doesn't do DNA testing on their animals, one or two (mabye more) Javan Rhinos have managed to survive in captivity and not been noticed? If not, how about hybrid Indian x Javan Rhinos?

I would be surprised if a zoo had any Javan rhinos unless they were captured recently. However, I think Barbary lions were rediscovered in circuses and in the private zoo of the king of Morocco so who knows? I have heard of sightings of Caspian tigers reported in Turkey and Afghanistan recently, although I have also read that studies in 2009 stated that Caspian and Siberian tigers were the same subspecies.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Given how few Indian rhinos there are and how disjunct their distribution from Javan rhinos is, I do not think this is possible. It seems likely that these species have been separated for millions of years and would not hybridize.

I ment like back in the old days when the two animals were commonly confused with each other. The last (known) individual in captivity died listed as an Indian Rhino.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I would be surprised if a zoo had any Javan rhinos unless they were captured recently. However, I think Barbary lions were rediscovered in circuses and in the private zoo of the king of Morocco so who knows? I have heard of sightings of Caspian tigers reported in Turkey and Afghanistan recently, although I have also read that studies in 2009 stated that Caspian and Siberian tigers were the same subspecies.

They are not pure Barbary Lions but they're just as pure as Amur Leopard (at least the ones in Europe. Many of the ones in the U.S. are really generic as they have been highly hybirdized)

The Caspian and Siberian Tigers are extremely similar but I think they are different subspecies that had just seperated before they were discovered as both are evolved differently and lived in two completely different areas (I mean Caspians lived in the desert while Amurs live in Siberia).