Javan Rhinoceros in zoos
- Thread starter ThylacineAlive
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Dicerorhinus
Well-Known Member
There's an awful lot of disinformation in this thread.
Pertinax, I can't pass comment in public but if you pm me your questions I'll gladly answer those I can.
Pertinax, I can't pass comment in public but if you pm me your questions I'll gladly answer those I can.
Yes I have already reviewed what I wrote and relized that much of this info. is wrong and in a few minutes will delete that post as it is very 'all over the place'. Is Kertam the same male as Tam Tam? Tam Tam's mate is named Puntung if that helps.
I thought Puntung was considered infertile after research, but apparantly it isn't all that bad yet;
Newsroom ? Borneo Rhino Alliance
I'm also wondering if they are using sperm from Kertam / Tam / Tam Tam (all the same animal) on Suci, although Suci might still be a bit young. Perhaps pairing her in the future with Andatu would be "easier" (not that that's easy, but perhaps easier then AI).
Newsroom ? Borneo Rhino Alliance
I'm also wondering if they are using sperm from Kertam / Tam / Tam Tam (all the same animal) on Suci, although Suci might still be a bit young. Perhaps pairing her in the future with Andatu would be "easier" (not that that's easy, but perhaps easier then AI).
I doubt they'll breed Suci with her nephew. It's a shame Puntung can't breed (I guess for now since they're working to change that according to that story). If they're all out of options, then I guess the most logical choice would be to breed Tam Tam with Suci.
Pertinax, thanks for your answer on the origin of the captive Sumatran.
Before the massive declines caused by humans in the last few hundred years, Javan and Indian were very close geographically, probably even parapatric in the Assam region. Based on genetic evidence, Javan and Indian are fairly close (the entire genus diverged in the late Miocene/early Pliocene). Among the five traditionally recognized rhino species, none are closer than Javan and Indian. But that doesn't really say much about the possibility of hybrids and there's not much to base any guesses on. If I had to put my money on something, I would guess they can hybridize and the hybrid offspring is infertile. I could easily be wrong
Yes, the DNA of various populations has been reviewed to some extent, e.g. Morales et al. 1997 (Conservation Biology 11). There are differences between Bornean and other populations, and also some differences between populations within Sumatra.
Phyl: Borneo+(SW Sumatra+(E. Sumatra+W. Malaysia))
Whether the border is 'pretty distinct', to use your wording, can be discussed. Distinct enough to be separate subspecies and for some to suggest separate conservation management; yes. Distinct enough to be separate species; not really based on present evidence. However, if you follow the phylogenetic species concept, e.g. believe the northern and southern whites are separate species, you have a reasonable case for splitting the two Sumatran races into separate species. Then you also have a reasonable case for splitting the black into several species (based on limited evidence, some –but far from all– the traditional black taxa have diverged). Regardless of a possible wish of managing Bornean separately we may not have much of a choice. There are so few left that any breeding is a step forward, even if it involves a mix of the two populations.
Yes, you can get DNA from museums specimens. No, it typically isn't complete, i.e. you would have to fill out the holes using other samples.
There are zoochat threads on cloning that discuss some of the points and I would recommend you check those (e.g. the mammoth thread). In general, I think cloning is a very problematic idea for conservation at this point. Among others: huge sums required could be spend more effeciently on safeguarding the ones that are alive, you need a lot of luck to succeed, even if you do succeed once it doesn't change anything (you need repeated successes with different individuals; otherwise you just have a bunch of identical individuals = guaranteed inbreeding) and you need a suitable carrier of the embryo. The last makes the Javan rhino particularly problematic compared to some other species where cloning has been suggested for conservation. The most logical choice as a carrier would be the Indian rhino. The problem is that the Indian is threatened too. Not as threatened as the Javan, but enough for it to be a serious concern. Removing a bunch of female Indians in the prime of their reproductive life would be very bad for conservation of the Indian, whether you took them from the captive population or the wild population. Pushing Indian towards extinction in an attempt to save Javan.....
Before the massive declines caused by humans in the last few hundred years, Javan and Indian were very close geographically, probably even parapatric in the Assam region. Based on genetic evidence, Javan and Indian are fairly close (the entire genus diverged in the late Miocene/early Pliocene). Among the five traditionally recognized rhino species, none are closer than Javan and Indian. But that doesn't really say much about the possibility of hybrids and there's not much to base any guesses on. If I had to put my money on something, I would guess they can hybridize and the hybrid offspring is infertile. I could easily be wrong
Yes, the DNA of various populations has been reviewed to some extent, e.g. Morales et al. 1997 (Conservation Biology 11). There are differences between Bornean and other populations, and also some differences between populations within Sumatra.
Phyl: Borneo+(SW Sumatra+(E. Sumatra+W. Malaysia))
Whether the border is 'pretty distinct', to use your wording, can be discussed. Distinct enough to be separate subspecies and for some to suggest separate conservation management; yes. Distinct enough to be separate species; not really based on present evidence. However, if you follow the phylogenetic species concept, e.g. believe the northern and southern whites are separate species, you have a reasonable case for splitting the two Sumatran races into separate species. Then you also have a reasonable case for splitting the black into several species (based on limited evidence, some –but far from all– the traditional black taxa have diverged). Regardless of a possible wish of managing Bornean separately we may not have much of a choice. There are so few left that any breeding is a step forward, even if it involves a mix of the two populations.
Yes, you can get DNA from museums specimens. No, it typically isn't complete, i.e. you would have to fill out the holes using other samples.
There are zoochat threads on cloning that discuss some of the points and I would recommend you check those (e.g. the mammoth thread). In general, I think cloning is a very problematic idea for conservation at this point. Among others: huge sums required could be spend more effeciently on safeguarding the ones that are alive, you need a lot of luck to succeed, even if you do succeed once it doesn't change anything (you need repeated successes with different individuals; otherwise you just have a bunch of identical individuals = guaranteed inbreeding) and you need a suitable carrier of the embryo. The last makes the Javan rhino particularly problematic compared to some other species where cloning has been suggested for conservation. The most logical choice as a carrier would be the Indian rhino. The problem is that the Indian is threatened too. Not as threatened as the Javan, but enough for it to be a serious concern. Removing a bunch of female Indians in the prime of their reproductive life would be very bad for conservation of the Indian, whether you took them from the captive population or the wild population. Pushing Indian towards extinction in an attempt to save Javan.....
Nephew? Where did that come from?
Suci has a father, Ipuh at Cincinnati and two full brothers, Andalas(older) at Way Kambas and Harapan(younger) now at L.A. The deceased 'Emi' was mother of all three.
It doesn't say Puntung can't breed, but there may be problems apparently in her reproductive tract which may hinder it. This seems frequent with Sumatrans brought into captivity, in her case it could be the result of a solitary existence in the wild for some years without mating and/or pregnancy. Her damaged forefoot also means she may not be able to mate naturally but they plan a prothsetic foot for her to address that problem.
As Kertam and Suci are on two different continents AI would seem the locigal option there.
Nephew? Where did that come from?
I think he means Andatu.
This discussion on Sumatran rhinos is fascinating but it is a digression from the title of this thread Javan Rhinoceros in Zoos so to bring this back to the original topic:-
Dave: I’m now intrigued by this particular specimen and would appreciate some further details please. Given that Rookmaaker was doubtful that this Amsterdam Zoo animal was a Javan rhinoceros, yet you categorically state it was, what evidence is there that it really was a Javan rhino and what is your source, please?
Dave: I’m now intrigued by this particular specimen and would appreciate some further details please. Given that Rookmaaker was doubtful that this Amsterdam Zoo animal was a Javan rhinoceros, yet you categorically state it was, what evidence is there that it really was a Javan rhino and what is your source, please?
My apologies to him as I completely forgot about this calf which is indeed her 'nephew'..
But he won't be mature for years to come anyway.As Tim May has pointed out, Sumatran Rhinos are really a digression here- so apologies there too.
The zoo says that Suci gets weekly ultra-sounds so who knows what they've done.
condor- As you said, cloning is a highly difficult thing to do, just look how long they've been working on the Thylacine cloning project, but it has been done before, as you should know, and it has even been performed on an Extinct species. The Pyrenean Ibex (Capra pryenaica pryenaica) went Extinct in the year 2000 but scientists successfuly cloned the species in 2009 after an unsuccessful first attempt in 2003. Before, only two babies had survived after the initial two-month gestation but died before birth. The baby lived for seven minutes before dying of a lung defect. The mother was either a mountain goat or a mountain goat-domesticated goat hybrid as both were used in attempts. After this, I believe the project was scraped since it was thought they should be focusing on protecting endangered species instead of cloning Extinct species (I think that cloning species we caused to go Extinct is important as well although protecting living species does come first).
Pertinax- As BeardsleyZooFan mentioned, I was refuring to Andatu. I guess if breeding the two subspecies together is the only choice, then it should be done to save the species (unless they discover that they're really two seperate species).
Pertinax- As BeardsleyZooFan mentioned, I was refuring to Andatu. I guess if breeding the two subspecies together is the only choice, then it should be done to save the species (unless they discover that they're really two seperate species).
I'm afraid I won't be of much help here, as my source is just that I'd always heard this to be the case
my interest has been piqued too, however, by the evidence you have provided that at least one authority doubted the origin of this animal.I think I'll have to add it to the list of anomalies I plan to research if I ever get my hands on better source material, along with the fact that according to Zootierliste, three European zoos (Leipzig, Rotterdam and Hannover) have claimed to have held Andean Cat in the mid-20th century - a claim I am doubtful of due to the very limited knowledge of this species until the past decade or so. My suspicion is that they were misidentified Pampas Cat, but as Rotterdam certainly held Pampas Cat identified as such at a different point in time, one would think they'd know the difference.
But that's by the by, so I shan't digress further.
I'm afraid I won't be of much help here, as my source is just that I'd always heard this to be the case
I think I'll have to add it to the list of anomalies I plan to research if I ever get my hands on better source material........
Thanks very much for your response anyway, Dave; I’ll endeavour to find out more about this animal.
That’s certainly intriguing too and probably deserves a thread of its own
It's arguable that all animals and living things deserve a thread of their own since they are all special in their own way but this is a thread on the Javan Rhino so I suggest we move back to that subject. I don't mind talking about other things rhino related but my cat thread, http://www.zoochat.com/2/tigers-lions-leopards-oh-my-big-295148/, is a more appropriate place to talk about Andean Cats.
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the Javan rhinos in Cat Tien are now extinct and have been since October 2011 as has been said by the International Rhino Foundation
what if there are Javan rhinos in a zoo somewhere, but have been mistakenly labeled as Indian rhinos? I mean think about it; they're in the same genus and the only physical difference one can see is the size (the Javans are smaller). File that under things that make you go "hmmm"...
jbnbsn99
Well-Known Member
To answer your thought - no.
That did happen at least once in the distant past, in Adelaide Zoo in Australia.
But as well as overeall size, the two species are actually more distinctive than you describe- the shoulder fold of skin on the Javan rhino goes right over the back, in Indian rhinos it doesn't. Javan rhino has distinct 'mosaic' pattern on skin too.
No zoo nowadays could posibly confuse them.