ZSL London Zoo LONDON ZOO Cotton Terraces UPDATE.

I was quite pleasantly surprised by what the Casson House currently is- still not great but a big improvement considering what an awful canvas it makes. It is basically a lesson about what a zoo is- why they are important etc with facts about ZSL and zoo's in general. The inside refurbishments do smarten it up no end- and don't feel to temporary or in any way a 'quick fix'. Perhaps a rainforest display as previously suggest (or a 'mountain display even) would be good- but I personally don't know the full implications of it's listed building status and wouldn't even like to begin to imagine the cost of such a renovation.

The hippo pool was being improved whilst we were there though- just made to look more presentable by adding more natural building materials as they have done in the Into Africa exhibit.
 
heres a radical thought how about moving the malayan tapir to the old elephant house and using that area for a pair of black rhino, that wing of the cotton could be renovated and the paddock could be enlarged to take in some of the giraffe paddock! thoughts please.
 
If ZSL ever kept black rhino again I think it would be at Whipsnade. A great idea though.
 
The giraffe paddock is small enough as it is....for some reason they haven't extended it into the small paddock behind it. As impressive as the architecture is, I would love them to devote that whole area to okapi and bongo. I can't help feeling the giraffes, especially the two old timers, should have earnt a good long retirement somewhere out in the countryside by now. There was so much controversy by the time Jos left London zoo, I don't think they would ever be able to keep rhino again. The current tapir area is really too small for tapirs, let alone anything larger and more active.

I would be surprised if whipsnade recieved any more black rhino as they were unsuccessful with the last pair, and now paignton has kind of taken over that role, with a calf this year.
 
I feel that if a zoo has no luck in breeding one pair of animals such as London zoos last pair of Black rhinos it should not just not keep the species again, some animals never breed some do, whats to say they could not do better with different black rhinos in the future
 
but if we was to say that mark, then no zoo in oz should have elephnats ;) no but in general yes i do agree, unless the zoo makes significant improvements, such as along with animal imports, keeper imports as well. but in saying this, dont botehr wasting money and resources, concentarte on what u can breed and make a worth while contribution to ssp that way.
 
Zoo_Boy London zoo have bred black rhinos before so they should be able to breed them again, I really dont see how you can compare us in oz in with never being able to breed elephants, there are a number of zoos within the UK that they can sorce new rhinos from that should not be a problem for them, in regards to elephants in oz we have a very limited number in the whole country
 
History and black rhino breeding

Guys,

London Zoo used to have a flourishing black rhino pair in the early 1990's. Several calves were born and distributed among the British Isles. The zoo held back the handraised female Rosie and paired her with male Jos from Dvur Kralove. However, whereas Jos was definitely interested and in breeding mode, Rosie was aggressive towards him and would not let him near. The black rhino pair were seperated: Rosie was sent on breeding loan to Chester in 2001 and Jos arrived in Port Lympne (where he bred soon after).

Since then their enclosure has been used by smaller animals (can't remember just now what species). But I feel - bongorob and Hadley - that for London Zoo it is a sorry state for the pavillion. Black rhinos ... dreaming!
 
MARK said:
I feel that if a zoo has no luck in breeding one pair of animals such as London zoos last pair of Black rhinos it should not just not keep the species again, some animals never breed some do, whats to say they could not do better with different black rhinos in the future
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i was replying to tthis, i agree, if they didnt breed em, then unless there is suffiecent chance and resources in future, so be it

but u just said london hadnt, now u say they have?
 
I think (could be wrong) what Mark was saying was that just because London hadn't had much luck with the last pair of Black Rhino shouldn't mean they can't keep them again, especially considering that previous to that pair they'd done well with the species. It depends on the individual animals.

However all that said there is not the space required for rhinos at London Zoo if modern welfare standards were to be met. The exhibit that they used to be held in is very small and now holds bearded pigs. There is no-where else on the current site they could be kept.
 
jelle said:
Guys,

London Zoo used to have a flourishing black rhino pair in the early 1990's. Several calves were born and distributed among the British Isles.
I beg to differ a little. London and Whipsnade did BOTH have successful breeding pairs of Black Rhino from the 1960's onwards. Paul and June were in London. Bwana Mkubwa and Mama Kidogo at Whipsnade. After the male Paul died at London, Bwana Mkubwa was used with both the females, and made several trips to London to breed with June. Each female produced Five calves(plus a couple more stillborn), but only TWO (out of ten) survived to adulthood after being sent to other UK Zoos. These were Esther(b.London) and Parky (b. Whipsnade, fathered by a different bull 'Rupert) who later made up a new pair at Chester.

As nearly all these calves died AFTER being weaned and sent to other zoos, I can't criticise ZSL for these failures, but it was hardly a successful programme.

After June died at London, Bwana and Mama Kidogo from Whipsnade were both exhibited there for a while, before being moved on to Port Lympne. During this time Mama produced 'Rosie' who was handraised and who after living with Jos at London, was later sent to Chester, where she still is. Bwana and Mama were sent(seperately) down to Port Lympne where they bred together twice more before they died. The surviving calf was male KataKata,once at Whipsnade and Chester, now in France. Bwana bred with other females too and has two other offspring from his time there.

London and Whipsnade continued with new pairs;
London- Jos(from Dvur) and Rosie(b.London) at London,
Whipsnade- Emma(b.Chester) and KataKata(b.port Lympne) then Quinto(from Chester) replaced KataKata then female Saya from Berlin replaced Emma. But NONE of these six animals bred at either place.

ZSL have not bred a Black Rhino at either zoo since 'Rosie' at ZSL (date?)

I believe Black Rhinos won't now return to either collection. London's decision to part with them was based on space requirements, and that stays unchanged. Whipsnade were left with only Quinto after the Berlin female died and so he was returned to Chester.

Its not a very illustrious tale.....
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It's definitely the case that some urban zoos have had pairs of rhino that bred frequently (Bristol, London, Edinburgh), but my point was, with London, the main reason for Jos to finally leave the collection was not that Black rhino could not be bred there, more that he exhibited stress-related behavoiur and had very little room. My second point was an observation that there are some species that are rarely reallocated by the regional studbook/ programme coordinators to a collection, no matter how prestigous, and Black Rhino seem to be one of these species in the UK. I'm sure officially the decision was taken by Whipsnade themselves not to continue with them after the most recent death, but no zoo in the UK would escape harsh criticism if repeated losses occur with a well-known endangered species.
 
Hadley said:
but my point was, with London, the main reason for Jos to finally leave the collection was not that Black rhino could not be bred there, more that he exhibited stress-related behavoiur and had very little room.
Yes, that was the over-riding issue with the Black Rhinos at London, and the reason I don't think they will keep them again in future.
With Whipsnade I think the currently successful White and Indian rhinos- both breeding again at present, probably precludes any desire for them to add Blacks to the collection again.
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grantsmb said:
Hadley said:
but my point was, with London, the main reason for Jos to finally leave the collection was not that Black rhino could not be bred there, more that he exhibited stress-related behavoiur and had very little room.
Yes, that was the over-riding issue with the Black Rhinos at London, and the reason I don't think they will keep them again in future.
With Whipsnade I think the currently successful White and Indian rhinos- both breeding again at present, probably precludes any desire for them to add Blacks to the collection again.
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Thanx for the explanation. It seems fair and unwise to ever exhibit black rhinos again at London Zoo. With Whipsnade however, I am equally uncomfortable. The past black rhino exhibit was even tinier. I guess it is better to concentrate on both the Indians (quite successful) and whites (early 2000's doing well, now no births for 2 years ....).
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Yes, I agree on that.

Actually, in recent years the Black Rhinos at Whipsnade were moved to an enclosure adjacent to the Giraffes. The house and yards were very similar to the previous one, but there was a much larger paddock attatched (though often there was no rhino using it) allowing for much more space.

The enclosure where they used to breed in the 1960/70's with Bwana and Mama has been used since by the male Indian Rhino...

A bit more Black Rhino history for you;
When the male of London's 1960's pair (paul) died and the Whipsnade male(Bwana Mkubwa, a fine bull)) was used with both cows, Whipsnade also had for a while the male 'Rupert' who was born in Hanover and had lived at Bristol's Hollywood Towers estate(but never in the Zoo). Even by black rhinos standards, he was an excessively nervous male. But he sired one calf at Whipsnade with 'Mama'- this was the male 'Parky' who went to Chester, later to Port Lympne and is now at (i believe) Zurich?
Parky was the father of Chester's Emma(deceased), and fortunately has one breeding daughter at Port Lypmne too.
 
Grant, do you know anything about Nelson who arrived at Chester in 1954? I don't think he was there when Susie came in 1959.
 
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