Lowland gorillas in Europe 2012

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Schmiding: Djengi

Pertinax said:
If Schmiding is one of those zoos that don't update their website regularly or publicly identify the Gorillas etc I would guess there is also less chance they will respond to your enquiry about what's happened to Djenghi.

If so, of course that raises my curiosity levels too!
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They did respond today, very briefly, confirming that Djengi died on May 13, 2012. The cause of death was not disclosed.
 
Willard said:
They did respond today, very briefly, confirming that Djengi died on May 13, 2012. The cause of death was not disclosed.
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At least they did reply to you with the truth (instead of 'gone to another zoo':rolleyes: )

It is always sad when a Gorilla you remember in its infancy dies like this- 'Djengi' was the first Gorilla to be born at Bristol after the opening of their new Gorilla Island, with the new trio of animals- male Claus and females Salome and Undi. Djengi had to be removed and handraised a few months after his birth as his mother 'Undi' became very ill but she carried on caring for him almost up to her death I believe. He was the only offspring of 'Claus' and 'Undi'.
 
Willard said:
Have a look, he did a great job!
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I didn't know the old male 'Rudy' had died in January at Touroparc Romaneche. Perhaps its good they don't have Gorillas anymore, though at least the old female 'Kora' from Antwerp was able to enjoy her later years there with an outside enclosure- at Antwerp I think due to overcrowding in the Ape House, that she and her mate 'Gust' may never have used an outside enclosure for many years.
 
Nisha said:
In other news: The male that Dvur temporarily leant to Liberec is due to be returned tomorrow. The female will follow in July
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Thanks for all the interesting links and updates, Nisha! :) The male from Dvur Kralove is Tadao (wildborn, probably infertile), the female is Shinda. Rumours had it that Shinda would be sent off to another zoo for breeding, and Tadao would have to live solitary. So I wonder why they don't move them back to Dvur at the same time, and if Shinda will really follow next month. :confused:
Shinda's ancestry: Gorilla Family - Dvur Kralove | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
 
Social Behavioral Dynamics and Captive Management of All-male Groups

In case someone is interested, I found the doctoral thesis (dissertation) of a Marianne Nitsch at the Berlin University (2004): Social Behavioral Dynamics and Captive Management of All-male Groups of Western Lowland Gorillas (Gorilla gorilla gorilla) in European Zoos I've only had a brief look so far but she did her studies at Paignton and Loro Parque, Tenerife, and observed Claus and Pertinax, among others. The thesis is online and can be downloaded in pdf format. >> Link
 
Willard said:
Shinda's ancestry: Gorilla Family - Dvur Kralove | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
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I hadn't realised the female 'Messy' had bred with 'Tadao', so he must have been fertile at some stage previously.

When 'Messy' and 'Minouche' were sent to London Zoo for several years, I believe the (then) male 'Jock'(now Bristol's male) was aggressive to Messy and couldn't be kept with her- so Messy and Minouche ended up being kept segregated from Jock/Zaire, until the two males Jock and Bongo/Bobby were exchanged. Minouche couldn't breed anyway after an operation, and I always thought the transfer of these two elderly females to London was a complete waste of time and so it proved to be. My guess is they were the only ones they could get. They were transferred back to Dvur during the building of the new Gorilla Kingdom exhibit.
 
Bachelor males

Willard said:
The thesis is online and can be downloaded in pdf format. >> Link
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Thanks for finding this. There is a lot of interesting information here though its quite dated now obviously, and I certainly haven't read it all!. It does suggest that all-male Groups in wild Mountain Gorillas have been observed more often than I thought, which indicates this may not be quite such an 'unnatural' captive grouping as I previously argued- however this behaviour is still not mentioned for wild Lowland Gorillas. One important difference seems to be that in all-male zoo groups, the members aren't free to leave when they want e.g. as they mature, or they sometimes have to co-exist with other individuals they don't choose/like, or are a mix of socialised(mother-raised) and desocialised(handraised) individuals with different behaviours, any of which can result in fighting leading to necessary isolation/seperation.

The history of the formation of Paignton's group is very enlightening for anyone who knows this group. But I am not sure if Loro Parc's male gorillas all still live together? Unlike Paignton's group which has changed over time as some males have left and other younger ones have joined, resulting in it still having only one silverback(Pertinax) and the rest younger males, by contrast the Loro Parc group are pretty much the same animals(apart from Ivo's departure) as cited in this article but all of them are now fully grown Silverbacks.

I wonder if they have had any of the problems apparent in recent times at Port Lympne, where the original bachelor male group of six animals has gradually fragmented as they matured, so now only three can be kept together(two others are seperate/alone, one died)
 
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docend24 said:
Tadao is back in Dvur, Shinda still in Liberec and will go to Moscow.
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I've heard about that decision some weeks ago from a contact in CZ but was asked not to make it public. So it doesn't come as a surprise ... I wonder though if Tadao will be provided the company of other males - any news about that?
 
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Pertinax said:
I hadn't realised the female 'Messy' had bred with 'Tadao', so he must have been fertile at some stage previously.
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Thanks for the info on Messy and Minouche, I did not know they had lived in London. - After reading your post I got doubts about Tadao's offsprings, as I had collected the data for my tree from J. R. Davis's inofficial studbook. But I've just compared it to the ISB 2011, and everything is correct. - Anyway, Tadao seems to be determined to live alone from now on - unless the EEP will send him some (male) companions, but I doubt it. He is too old. I think you'd agree that while all-male groups are not a perfect solution, yet inevitable, a solitary gorilla is an even less ideal solution. And regardless of the EEP's well-meaning intentions I feel sorry for him.
 
Pertinax said:
One important difference seems to be that in all-male zoo groups, the members aren't free to leave when they want e.g. as they mature, or they sometimes have to co-exist with other individuals they don't choose/like, or are a mix of socialised(mother-raised) and desocialised(handraised) individuals with different behaviours, any of which can result in fighting leading to necessary isolation/seperation.

But I am not sure if Loro Parc's male gorillas all still live together? Unlike Paignton's group [...] the Loro Parc group are pretty much the same animals(apart from Ivo's departure) as cited in this article but all of them are now fully grown Silverbacks.
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I fully agree with you - the lack of freedom to leave and get the chance to acquire females and start their own families is the main difference between solitary males in the wild and in captivity, and the same goes for members of all-male groups. But of course the "zoo network" cannot provide adequate solutions for this problem - if you regard any enclosure as a single habitat, those habitats are isolated from each other and there is no "natural" way to move from one into another.

As for Loro Parque, AFAIK the silverbacks are still living together. At least five of them - Maayabu died early this year, and Schorsch (who is blind) was separated from the group. But I don't know how well they get along with each other.
 
You are all forgetting something: there is a political issue here!
(Dvur is being stripped off most if not all of its EAZA/EEP animals out on loan to them)
 
Willard said:
As for Loro Parque, AFAIK the silverbacks are still living together. At least five of them - Maayabu died early this year, and Schorsch (who is blind) was separated from the group. But I don't know how well they get along with each other.
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I wasn't aware Maayabu had died.:( As the only mother-reared male in the group he was the best socialised and as a youngster, the most cohesive member. I had hoped as an adult he might leave to form a group somewhere, but not so.

'Schorsh' always had behavioural problems anyway so not too surprised if he is seperated nowadays.

Reports I have had (in the past) indicate that nowadays each keeps to his own space in the enclosure with little interaction between them.

This group has parallels with the oldest male group at Port Lympne, I think.
 
Willard said:
After reading your post I got doubts about Tadao's offsprings, as I had collected the data for my tree from J. R. Davis's inofficial studbook. But I've just compared it to the ISB 2011, and everything is correct.
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The Jim Davis studbook is very good but as you are aware, there are quite a few mistakes in it regarding sex, birthdates, mother/handraised, ownership etc and its wise to doublecheck any data from there.
 
Nisha said:
A so far, unsexed baby was born to "Rebecca" at Frankfurt on 10th July
Zoo Frankfurt: Freudiges Ereignis bei den Gorillas
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Although it says before this birth 'Rebecca' had two previous miscarriages by Viatu, she has previously been Frankfurt's most successful and experienced breeding female in recent years, with 7 offspring to her name, all sired by the previous silveback 'Matz'. One of them is the male 'Damisi' at Chessington,UK. and another is silverback 'Akili' at Artis Zoo in Holland.
 
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